Ethics of Hybrids

[Adam_Wysocki]

Uh oh! Here comes the derma ball debate!

No debate from me ... I really could not care less about the derma ball ... I'm just not a big fan of information like "the derma ball has gross health problems" being propagated on internet forums when there is ZERO evidence to support that claim.

I don't think that it's right to state speculation as fact based on hearsay and innuendo read from anonymous sources on the internet.

-adam

[elevatethis]

Me niether...the good thing about message boards is that it allows communication at a level never seen before in this hobby. The bad thing is that people often read threads and automatically accept the information therein as fact.

[Mendel's Balls]

You missed my point completey. My point had nothing to do with designer morphs ... my point is that if you're going to be against hybrids AND use the argument that they could escape/be relased into native populations and pollute the gene pool, then you would either also have to argue that keeping ANY herp in captivity that could inter-breed with the local native population should also not be allowed ... or you would be incredibly inconsistent in your argument and hence baseless. Can't have your cake and eat it too.



What gross health problems does the Derma have exactly? It hasn't even reproduced yet to know if the trait is genetic? Are you referring to the so called "lack of heat pits"? You should probably read up on your snake physiology a little more. That statement is a bit like saying that a snake without a tounge lacks a jacobsons organ. The derma is eating, growing, and breeding ... I'm not sure exactly what "tremendous stress" that snake has. What did you read yesterday to make you believe that Justins animal has "gross health problems"? Have you spoken with Justin about the animal or seen it in person?

Are you really forming an opinion based on an internet posting by someone you don't know that may or may not even have factual information about the animal?

-adam

Your right.....I did say if it is genetic......

I shouldnt have been more careful.....lets say if the derma has problems then I wouldnt be for its propagation......but again it gets blurry melanin has a protective effect against UV radiation and we dont seem to mind breeding albinos....

Health problems depends on the stituation.....most captive bred animials would have problems in the wild.....

[Mendel's Balls]

Are you referring to the so called "lack of heat pits"? You should probably read up on your snake physiology a little more. That statement is a bit like saying that a snake without a tounge lacks a jacobsons organ. The derma is eating, growing, and breeding ... I'm not sure exactly what "tremendous stress" that snake has. What did you read yesterday to make you believe that Justins animal has "gross health problems"? Have you spoken with Justin about the animal or seen it in person?

Are you really forming an opinion based on an internet posting by someone you don't know that may or may not even have factual information about the animal?

-adam

Does it or doesnt it have heat pits?

I would also think that a snake without a tongue would have trouble using its Jacobson organs......my understanding is the snake flicks its tongue to collect and sample molecules from the surronding envirnoment and places its forked tongue into the two openings on the organ so that they can be read by it and interpretted by the brain.

If I have something wrong about this, please educate and correct me. Thanks.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Does it or doesnt it have heat pits?

So you don't even know and you're condeming the animal?

The "heat pits" are not scales, they are nerve ending inside of the animals skin. If the animal can hunt and kill prey, how does it even matter?

I would also think that a snake without a tongue would have trouble using its Jacobson organs......my understanding is the snake flicks its tongue to collect and sample molecules from the surronding envirnoment and places its forked tongue into the two openings on the organ so that they can be read by it and interpretted by the brain.

I have two snakes in my collection without tounges that eat and breed just fine.

What is your definition of "healthy"? ... Are you looking for "perfection" in order for an animal to be considered "healthy"?

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

Did I have a post on this thread pulled? Are you kidding me? ... Maybe I just lost it in the ethos?? Must have been the ethos! ... Since I save everything I post, lets try this again.

Your right.....I did say if it is genetic......

No, but you said ....

I am against propagating any morph or hybrid that has gross health problems, such as the unproven Derma Ball Morph I read about yesterday....this snake has no scales or heat pits

You equated "gross health problems" to the derma ball.

That is my point of disagreement.

but again it gets blurry melanin has a protective effect against UV radiation and we dont seem to mind breeding albinos....

Good thing there's no UV radiation in my home or at my shop.

Health problems depends on the stituation.....most captive bred animials would have problems in the wild.....

There have been adult albino ball pythons (as well as other adult mutations) collected from the wild that are now thriving in captivity with no health problems.

There have also been adult scale less rattle snakes found and recorded in the US that were thriving.

-adam

[Mendel's Balls]

What is your definition of "healthy"? ... Are you looking for "perfection" in order for an animal to be considered "healthy"?

-adam

I'm hardly saying that healthy is perfect...in biology there is no perfect animial...it's all about trade-offs.

Thanks for the info on the heat pits.....I saw it on this board in a thread you were involved in.....you didnt correct it there...thanks for setting the record straight....

DO you feed the two snakes without tongues live? Just wondering.

[xdeus]

The "heat pits" are not scales, they are nerve ending inside of the animals skin. If the animal can hunt and kill prey, how does it even matter?

Hmm... I thought the heat pits were formed by the scales which gave access to the sensitive nerve endings on the skin. Not that it matters, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Hmm... I thought the heat pits were formed by the scales which gave access to the sensitive nerve endings on the skin. Not that it matters, but correct me if I'm wrong.

It's the nerve endings that do the work.

If you were missing your toe nails, you'd still be able to walk, you'd just have less to chew on at night while watching American Idol.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

you didnt correct it there...

Well, you can't catch em all.

DO you feed the two snakes without tongues live? Just wondering.

They are both currently eating live, but since they've been in my care over the past 10 - 12 years, they've both taken F/T as well as P/K ... Doesn't matter to them or to me.

-adam