Ethics of Hybrids

[tigerlily]

Whenever I think hybrid, I usually think mule. (offspring of horse and donkey) It was widely utilized since it had many of the good aspects of both, except that it is sterile. Of course this is not a herp example, but one that shows that when it's to our benefit no one says much about it.

[JLC]

The only problem I have with this issue is when you can't be sure if you're getting a "pure" bloodline because of all the under-the-table hybridizing that goes on. Or, even if the original breeder keeps good, honest records, once he sells that hybrid to someone else, the control over how it is represented is out of his hands. And if that animal changes hands multiple times, the chances are high that no one will ever know what it's true bloodline was to begin with.


Other than the dishonesty sometimes associated with hybrids, I see NO moral issues here at all. If you like 'em...more power to ya. If you don't like 'em...then be careful what you buy and from whom. (Well, anyone should be careful anyhow! LOL)

[xdeus]

How would that affect the snake, or is it just the fact that you "might" have a tainted species? Would it be similar if you bought a Lemon Pastel and it actually had some Graziani mixed in?

I can see where you're coming from, though. I supposed I wouldn't be happy if I bought a BCC and it turned out to have BCI mixed in.

[JLC]

How would that affect the snake, or is it just the fact that you "might" have a tainted species? Would it be similar if you bought a Lemon Pastel and it actually had some Graziani mixed in?

I can see where you're coming from, though. I supposed I wouldn't be happy if I bought a BCC and it turned out to have BCI mixed in.

I'm not saying it affects the snake, I'm just saying that I want to KNOW what I'm buying. Especially if I spend a lot of money and/or I plan to breed. How frustrating would it be to buy a pair of BCC's....spend all the time and effort to raise them up to a healthy breeding age....breed them...and half the babies they throw look just like Columbians?

And I don't consider it "hybrid" at all if a Lemon pastel is mixed with a Graziani. They're both ball pythons....that's no more a hybrid than any "Designer" morph. That being said...if I'm spending that much money on a snake, I want to know exactly what it's parentage is (as much as is reasonable), so I know what to expect come breeding time.

[frankykeno]

My view on hybridization is a bit on the fence due to past experience working in a private fishery in Canada and my own personal stance on messing too much with Mother Nature.

I feel that if you are talking about a group of creatures meant to stay within a captive state then that's one thing. As long as you breed from a standpoint of producing viable hybrids that are healthy and able to reproduce themselves successfully then I have no issues with this. As Judy mentioned, as long as records are kept and animals are represented properly as hybrids. My problem will always be when any creatures are affected by human intervention in their breeding process and the result is either defective young, birthing issues for the female or an inability for the offspring to live a normal, full life.

For creatures that are hybridized with the intent of release back to the wild, this is a sticky topic. An example is the Splake, a cross between a female lake trout and a male brook trout (it can't work the other way). The Splake carries the best of both fish but are hard to visually identify as they can look a lot like either parent or a mix of both. They work in that they are a fantastic game fish, mature and breed faster than the lake trout but grow bigger than the average brookie. They tend to school more than lakes and will fight either brook-like or lake-like, so you never know what to expect. Splake are said to be fully fertile but from my time in the fishery we saw a lot that were not for some reason or other. Sounds like a great fish but the problem is they can breed back diluting the pure lake and brook stock. Some areas where brooks naturally occur have stopped keeping size records due to this mess of not knowing if it's a large record size true brook or a splake or some combo therein. The other quite stupid thing is at least in some areas, the limit laws for splake are different from lake and brook trout but you can't always visually know what you have is either a pure or a hybrid fish.

I guess what I'm saying in all this is when we contemplate messing with hybrids we better think long and hard about the consequences to the creature, it's offspring and the future of both hybrids and the pure stock they came from.

[Mendel's Balls]

Hybrid offspring are generally hardier and healthier than their parent stock (it's known as 'hybrid vigor')

If the cross doesn't 'work' then the eggs will simply not be fertilized in the first place.. at least that is how I understand it.

Not always true.....hybrid vigor does occur....for example, our bread wheat crop is a hybrid between a domesticated and wild variety.

But "hybrid breakdown" also occurs in many instances....for example, cotton plant hybrids produce fertile offspring (i.e give rise to an F2 generation) but over a couple more generations we see the hybrids grow weaker and die off.....

We also see the reduced fertility of many F1 hybrids including mules as someone pointed out.

We really dont know what occurs in a hybrid cross....

However, I see no problem with it.....I dont think it's for the begginner though.......Because you dont eactly know the care requirements for a hybrid. However, no one knew the captive care requirements for ball pythons until someone attempt to keep them in captivity.....

[tigerlily]

Oh I forgot to mention the Florida panther's, which are on the verge of extinction. But they are creating a hybrid with the Texas panther, which is increasing the population significantly. Of course these are probably on subspecies apart, so isn't quite in the same realm. But it brings up the usage of crosses to help species that have become endangered due to human interferance.

[Mendel's Balls]

My view on hybridization is a bit on the fence due to past experience working in a private fishery in Canada and my own personal stance on messing too much with Mother Nature.

I feel that if you are talking about a group of creatures meant to stay within a captive state then that's one thing. As long as you breed from a standpoint of producing viable hybrids that are healthy and able to reproduce themselves successfully then I have no issues with this. As Judy mentioned, as long as records are kept and animals are represented properly as hybrids. My problem will always be when any creatures are affected by human intervention in their breeding process and the result is either defective young, birthing issues for the female or an inability for the offspring to live a normal, full life.

For creatures that are hybridized with the intent of release back to the wild, this is a sticky topic. An example is the Splake, a cross between a female lake trout and a male brook trout (it can't work the other way). The Splake carries the best of both fish but are hard to visually identify as they can look a lot like either parent or a mix of both. They work in that they are a fantastic game fish, mature and breed faster than the lake trout but grow bigger than the average brookie. They tend to school more than lakes and will fight either brook-like or lake-like, so you never know what to expect. Splake are said to be fully fertile but from my time in the fishery we saw a lot that were not for some reason or other. Sounds like a great fish but the problem is they can breed back diluting the pure lake and brook stock. Some areas where brooks naturally occur have stopped keeping size records due to this mess of not knowing if it's a large record size true brook or a splake or some combo therein. The other quite stupid thing is at least in some areas, the limit laws for splake are different from lake and brook trout but you can't always visually know what you have is either a pure or a hybrid fish.

I guess what I'm saying in all this is when we contemplate messing with hybrids we better think long and hard about the consequences to the creature, it's offspring and the future of both hybrids and the pure stock they came from.

Good points.....However, I dont realyl think it applies to Python hybrids in North America though since it would be irresponsible to release a Wild-type BP into the wild here.....

I guess it would apply to king/corn hybrids....

[Shelby]

We also see the reduced fertility of many F1 hybrids including mules as someone pointed out.

Yeah true. I know with savannah cats (a domestic cat / african serval hybrid) the F1 generation has only fertile females, and not males. But several more generations into the hybridization, the males gain fertility too.

[xdeus]

I'm not saying it affects the snake, I'm just saying that I want to KNOW what I'm buying. Especially if I spend a lot of money and/or I plan to breed. How frustrating would it be to buy a pair of BCC's....spend all the time and effort to raise them up to a healthy breeding age....breed them...and half the babies they throw look just like Columbians?

And I don't consider it "hybrid" at all if a Lemon pastel is mixed with a Graziani. They're both ball pythons....that's no more a hybrid than any "Designer" morph. That being said...if I'm spending that much money on a snake, I want to know exactly what it's parentage is (as much as is reasonable), so I know what to expect come breeding time.

I know, I wasn't trying to equate a Ball morph combo with a hybrid. My point was whether or not it mattered what the lineage was if you were receiving a quality snake. I think right now it's a big issue because this is a relatively new hobby and a lot of people are just getting involved. I would be more concerned that someone was breeding a defective animal than a hybrid or mixed morph. You do make a good point about the BCC vs. BCI offspring, but honestly I'm not sure how the genetics would work in that case and if you would eventually get more offspring that resemble one species or the other, or just a blend similar to the parents. If it's the latter, then I probably wouldn't mind because I would be buying the snake based on the parents.

This will probably be a moot point in a few decades anyway. Unless there was some way of keeping track of the entire lineage of a snake, there will probably be some chance of it having a mixed genetic pool somewhere down the road. I know many breeders keep great records, but I don't think that will be enough to insure that the gene pool remains pure.