Pied-$$??

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

IMO, this is where dealing with someone honest/reputable is worth every penny you spend! This could be a small or big breeder! I don't judge a breeder based on how many snakes he/she has or how much they sold last year. There are a lot of part time/small time breeders out there that care a lot about their snakes and take great pride in them as well as stand 100% behind what they do.

If someone is selling that $5000 snake for $3000 because he needs $$$. My concerns would be like Adam mentioned "what happens if something goes wrong in shipping, it arrives sick, doesn't eat or dies a week later?". Will he refund the $3000, will he pay the vet bills, will he take it back? What are your chances of getting the seller to support you financially, when he needed the cash and probably spent it the day he got it?

I'm not much on expecting any special tips or tricks, but I would expect the seller to stand behind their animal, product, and guarantee 100%!

Exactly the point i mentioned earlier... if you pay $5k for a snake from someone who has been around longer, or $2500 from someone who hasnt, you have a much better chance of getting everything taken care of by the $5k larger seller, as they make an additional $2500 each sale, so if something goes wrong 1/10 times, they are still further ahead...

That is where it becomes the numbers game... are you willing to pay nearly twice as much to get insurance? Or would you rather do your own research on a person, pay half as much, and take the 10, 20 , 30% chance that if something happens that they wont take care of you. (another reason to have it shipped delta in my opinion).


Sorry for playing the devils advocate in this thread Just like thinking about it from both sides.


edit: heading to work.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Thats $250k worth of snakes for $15k of investment and a year of work....

I don't get what your problem with that is? I did something very similar last year with lessers. The market is strong like that.

Sure it isn't 9k, but they set their price in order to get a sale.

A good business person does not leave money on the table. Call an exec at GM and ask them to price their Chevy Trailblazers 50% below Fords Explorer "just to make their sale" ... They'll laugh their a$$es off at you. A good business person knows the market and prices their product at what it is worth in the marketplace ... not at what they can "cash out" at. The "cash out" mentality is what I have the problem with.

but in this one case, he argues that everyone should keep their prices high,

If that's what you think I was saying, you completely missed my point.

and not adapt to what people in the market are paying.

"Adapt to what people are paying"??? ... LOL ... WTF is that? People pay what a product is priced at. Lowering prices below what everyone else is selling products for just to make a sale is just lazyness. Put in the work, market yourself, and charge what your animal is worth ... If RDR, VPI, NERD can get 5K for an animal there is no reason why you can't ... you just have to do the work.

In the real world, business look at their overhead, taxes, profit margins, and growth and price their products according to the goals of their business plans … they don’t set a price just because that’s the only amount of money they can get. If that’s how you’re basing your business plan, you’re going to make it about 2 years before you get into serious trouble.

That keeps the price artificially high by having everyone keep their prices up, and is an example of price fixing.

That is not price fixing. I think you need to educate yourself a little better before you start throwing terms like that around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

Encouraging people to sell their products in order to recoup the maximum return on their investment and create a long term sustainable market is not price fixing ... it's called good business and wise investing.

Does anyone here really think that someone buying a $10k snake and 10 females of breeding size should be able to make a few hundred thousand in one year of work?

Why shouldn't they be able to? That's called a free market economy. People flip homes and make $100,000 in 2 months, why should snakes be any different? It's that kind of defeatist attitude that hurts the market.

Pricing lower than the "bigger" names, is not an example of trying to make a quick buck. It is called recognizing the market, recognizing your position, and adjusting your prices to reflect the value that consumers are willing to place on your snake compared to that of a larger breeder's snake.

No sir. It's called being lazy, doubting your ability to sell animals, and not managing your business properly by not having the capital to be able to sit on animals while they appreciate in value.

You’re also hurting your customers. Dropping your prices lower than everyone else in order to make a sale makes the market prices come down faster than they naturally would. That results in lower prices for your customers when they start selling offspring and less money in their pockets. Not the type of operation that I'd be interested in supporting.

It is obvious there is a lot of flex-room in the market if people are able to sell at such low prices.... Heck, if I bought 5 breedable male pastels for $5k total, 100 normal females of breeding size for $40k total, and then had good luck at breeding and hatching, I could end up with 100 clutches of 6, avg 3 pastels per clutch, looking at 300 pastels, half female half male.

150 males at 200 each
150 females at 500 each

30k and 75k... so by cutting prices to the bone, I could be up 60k (minus the cost of breeding, food, housing). And that is just in the first year... the second year that would all be profit, and I could cut my prices further.....

This shows you were the BP market could go.... if high dollar investors got into it and were just focused on making a quick dollar.... I really hope that doesnt happen, because then it will take the fun and ability for everyone else away, as what was once considered a good sized breeder became small in comparison.

But you conveniently leave out taxes and payroll. Do you even know how much the government will let you depreciate in your first year? You're going to take a big tax hit on all of those sales and then you'll wish you had charged more. You'll also be hard pressed to find a reliable source of feeders for the number of animals so you'll have to do your own which adds to the already high labor costs of caring for a collection that large.

You've got a lot to learn about running a business, sales, marketing, and large collection management ... I wish you all the luck in the world.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

(another reason to have it shipped delta in my opinion)

LOL ... Have you ever actually tried to get a nickle out of Delta on an insurance claim? ... LOL

Just because they offer insurance, doesn't mean you're going to get money back for anything.

-adam

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

You've got a lot to learn about running a business, sales, marketing, and large collection management ... I wish you all the luck in the world.

-adam

I couldn't agree with your more! That's why I get involved in discussions like this.


As far as the whole mention of price fixing, I sent you a PM explaining that I didnt say that in the correct way, and you are right....


I think the main thing you aren't addressing is this... If Nerd and RDR and 10 other well knowns are selling a pastel for $1200, and between them they have 1,000 for sale.... it will be very hard for new breeders to sell their snakes at the same price.... Basically those larger breeders would have to sell out of their snakes before smaller breeders had a chance at the same price...

That being said, you list your snakes at a given price, but do you ever sell for less than you list? To work with someone, to help someone out, etc? I don't think you would lower your price just to make a quick buck, but Im sure you would lower it under other circumstances? (someone buys multiples, etc)

I just think it is wrong to use a blanket statement saying that everyone who sells under market price, is trying to make a quick buck, is lazy, etc (if I misread this please let me know).

Ah well, funn stuff to talk about

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

LOL ... Have you ever actually tried to get a nickle out of Delta on an insurance claim? ... LOL

Just because they offer insurance, doesn't mean you're going to get money back for anything.

-adam

Nope, not at all. But I've heard a lot of good things about them shipping quicker , not losing packages, at least offering some kind of insurance, etc. and other stories that would make me more likely to ship through delta than through my local fed-ex guy who likes to play basketball with my packages

[jglass38]

I don't believe that just because NERD has say 1000 Pastels at $1200 that a smaller breeder can't sell a Pastel for the same $1200. If I saw a Pastel on Joe Compel's website (or even one of the many awesome folks that I have met on this site who are trying to build their own business) and it caught my eye, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy from them. I believe in supporting quality people with my business.

[ssscales]

I do think the system is flawed in thinking everyone must and should price themselves equal.

Example:
Breeder "A" has this huge 5,000sqft warehouse to pay for and maintain, 10 employees, insurance, overhead costs, operating cost, travel budgets for shows as well as Uncle Sam to account for!! Not too mention a house, wife and two kids to support and plan to pay for college.

Breeder "B", we'll call him "Jimmy".
Just turned 18yrs old, not a care in the world, living at home with his parents. No responsibility except his part time job at PetCo to pay for the insurance and gas on his Mustang daddy helped him buy last year. Jimmy goes ahead and buys a group of 4-5 100% Het females and 1-2 Albinos from breeder "A" for $7500 at market value.

Why should we expect Jimmy with his breeding group of Albinos that he bought from breeder "A" price those same snakes at the same price tag as breeder "A"?

All Jimmy has to worry about is the RodentPro bill every two months for under $100 and his initial ROI. He makes his ROI with his 2nd clutch even at 1/2 price of breeder "A". Jimmy won't pay taxes on his sales either! Jimmy can sell that same Albino for 1/2 the price of breeder "A" and probably clear more on the same sale! Jimmy just made about the same if not more $$$ selling those snakes at 1/2 the market value than he would make all year at his part time as PetCo.

Jimmy doesn't really see this as losing $1000 per snake, he sees it as making $1000 per snake!

Any thoughts?

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

Another note:

Larger breeders have advertising costs, employee costs, warehouse costs, business licenses, lawyer fees, etc that smaller breeders don't have.

It might cost a large breeder more per snake due to all of the above... so a small breeder might make 5k on a snake selling it at 6k, while a big breeder selling a snake at 6k would only make 3.5k

I still don't see why a small breeder should have to sell at the same prices as a larger breeder, they are completely different entities, and just because a smaller breeder sells for less doesn't mean they are lazy or greedy.

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

I don't believe that just because NERD has say 1000 Pastels at $1200 that a smaller breeder can't sell a Pastel for the same $1200. If I saw a Pastel on Joe Compel's website (or even one of the many awesome folks that I have met on this site who are trying to build their own business) and it caught my eye, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy from them. I believe in supporting quality people with my business.

I am talking about the general people buying snakes, of course if you know someone personally or have had many contacts with them it would give the smaller breeder a chance.

If someone looked me up and saw no real feedback from me, didnt know me, and called me up, and decided they liked me.... there is little chance they would stil pay the exact same as they would to nerd... more likely they would try to haggle me down knowing that I would have a lot of trouble selling at the same price as them.

[kavmon]

good discussion! a good point that was made was act like a business. this is so true, not that you have to run ads and have fancy websites(some of the biggest breeders don't advertise). but marketing yourself and making contacts is important to do. online forums,reptile shows are a great way to meet other breeders and make contacts. i'm a little old school on this one, but i think word of mouth and your actions speak volumes. how we handle problems is also a good test. a good transaction is pretty cut and dry, but when something goes wrong (shipping,feeding,death,after sale care,etc) happens this is when you see what someone is made of and it doesn't matter if you're RDR or V2R! lol


vaughn