Pied-$$??

[jglass38]

I've learned more from this discussion than from hours and hours on other message boards. Great job guys!

[ARamos8]

The reality is there is not a whole lot anyone can do about the price drops, cut throats, etc. What's tangable is a realistic business plan that will allow for / compensate for such an event to take place regardless of the product being sold. Whether you adopt the break even method or have a standard % of a markup to handle your overhead, adhearing to the plan will prevail all. The test of time (raising the girls) for some is a tuff pill to swallow if your intentions for the game (again) are not realistic. By the same token, if there were 100 or 500 Jimmy's out there doing the same and the prices are impacted just remember to see rule #1. Your Realistic Business Plan.

If ever the time should come that I will need to add an addition or build a small facility to house herps I would focus my time and energy on what it is I have to do over the next few years (even if I bump into Jimmy at Daytona) to possibly expand the collection and maintain / grow the trust that's got me this far. It's obvious to me that if I get to this point "the business plan" is working as designed regardless of Jimmy, price drops, etc.... Folks are looking to the next big morph as I. My contributions to the market may not be worth writing a book about, but it will be at the very least a consistant one via purchases, trades, partnered projects, etc.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I agree that the odd guy out there with a pair of Hets won't make much of a dent. What is worrisome is the guy who just mortgaged his house, or withdrew his 401K or just had the cash from other ventures to buy up a dozen of this, a dozen of that, two dozen of this and 100 normal females and just sit on them. A few years from now, a few of these breeders producing 100 of this, 100 of that, 50 of this, 50 of that and selling at 25-50% less just because they can and still turn a profit, can hurt the market for others! Or are they just focused on selling at a different tier in the market?

I think that home equity loan breeders and the 401k babies use the amount of $$$ that they've invested to make it look like they know what they're talking about with their large high dollar collections and when they price their animals as if they don't have a clue, they are capable of creating an uncertainty in the market that ripples down to the smaller guys and generally makes them nervous.

Guy "A" that spent his holiday bonus 2 years ago on a cinnamon pastel for 15K finally got the animal to breed and is sitting on 3 clutches ... 18 eggs total ... he's done his homework, talked to the big breeders, and learned that people are buying cinnies at 5K. He's planning roughly on producing 9 cinnies, selling 4 to re-coup his initial investment like he promised his wife and put a little extra in his pocket. The other 5 is a keep some trade some deal and "A" is excited.

Then one day "A" is reading the kingsnake classified and sees an ad by our old friend Jimmy. Turns out, Jimmy borrowed some money from his parents and has a website (kind of crummy, but more than "A" has) with what seems like every morph under the sun on it ... worst part, Jimmy is selling his cinnies for $2.5!! .... "A" thinks to himself "cr@p!!" ... He doesn't know that Jimmy is a kid, he thinks that Jimmy is a new up and comer looking to make his stake ... "A" start freaking out ... 2.5???? ... How's he going to compete ... so "A" screws up ... He lists his cinnies for 2.5K because he really needs to get his initial investment back to make his wife happy.

Jimmy and "A" both sell all of their cinnies ... Jimmy is happy ... no taxes, no rent, no bills ... just him and the little 19 year old hottie he met last weekend. "A" is happy too ... kind of ... He made his 15K back, but after food bills, shipping costs, paying taxes, and the new racks he bought to house the babies he's actually still in the hole 6K with only 2 cinnies left that he can't get more than 2.5K for because that's what he's been listing them at all summer ... maybe next year "A".

Had “A” stuck with his plan … marketed himself … taught himself how to make a cool website … got out on message board and went to shows and actually talked to people … he could have his initial investment back, a few dollars in the bank, taxes and food bills paid, and 5 more cinnies to expand his collection with … live and learn cause he can never go back.

Would you consider Wal-Mart a bad business model?

No, I don't think so at all. Sam Walton is a hero in business schools across the country, but I don't think that what Wal-Mart does really applies here. Living animals are a entirely different ball game. I think that Sam Waltons business plan might have been a little different has his suppliers threatened him with death, respiratory infections, and 1 in 4 odds on 5 eggs clutches.

I see this like Sears and Kmart being pissed at Wal-Mart because they sold for less, was Sam Walton so wrong? Sears sales were about $40B in 05, Kmart about $30B, Wal-Mart sales last year about $230B. Instead of making a $10.00 profit on a certain product, Wal-Mart said I'll sell 10 at $1.00 profit margin. Did the formula fail?

Absolutely not. And there actually is room for Wal-Mart style business plans in the ball python world ... it's called wholesale. If you're willing to operate at a 10% margin, I can give you a list of breeders that will buy everything you have to sell, all day long. You'd never have to post an ad on kingsnake and you'd have to ship only a couple times a year no matter how much you produce. Best part is, you’d still be supporting the market because those breeders will sell at market prices!! … Good stuff for EVERYONE!

So how is it Wal-Mart is the largest company on the planet? Are they the oldest? Were they here 1st? Did they compete dollar for dollar with their competitors?

Nope, but what Walmart did do was follow a sound business plan and acted with a little common sense. Do you see the prices on end cap items in Wal-Mart dropping each week? ... Tide with Febreeze ... $5.99 ... $4.99 ... $3.99 ... nope! ... They don't stink of desperation when something isn't moving ... they box it up, put it away, and try again in a couple of months.

Do they lower their prices on artificial Christmas trees each and every year. 2003 $199, 2004 $149, 2005 $99 ... etc ... NO. The prices on seasonal items are the same ... EVERY SEASON.

Wal-Mart operates like a business and makes real money ... nothing wrong with that.

Will anyone care that I paid 3X's that a few years back only to see the price drop down to $500? Should I be upset because I paid 3X's that, should I kick myself for not waiting a few year and saved? If I do see prices drop, what can I do about it? Blame someone? About what?

Well, IMO, waiting is just silly … I’ve said before that by using that mentality, no one would ever invest in anything … rent an apartment until housing prices bottom out, hold off on investing in your 401K until the stock market crashes, don’t get engaged until gold is in the gutter, etc.

If you do see a drop, you don’t blame anyone but yourself. How much have you personally put into the market? How much have you gotten out there and educated people about running a business, marketing animals, protecting prices for long term market strength. How much work have you done to PROMOTE the ENTIRE ball market and not just the animals that you have for sale. A good business person in this market promotes and markets ALL BALL PYTHONS … their own, other breeders, their customers … ANY MONEY coming into the market is good money, even if it doesn’t go into your pocket … sooner or later it will come around to you if you’re doing things right. Don’t just be a seller, be a promoter. Ball pythons are the best damn investment on the planet right now, and if you’ve invested in balls and you’ve sold or you’re planning to sell investment animals to others that plan on breeding them to make money it’s in your best interest and your customers (or future customers) best interest for you to stand on that proverbial soap box and get people excited about the market.

The goal should be “long term sustainable income” … I’ll say that again … “long term sustainable income” … not a quick race to the bottom … the more people that get that message, the more money EVERYONE will make … nuttin wrong with that.

-adam

[jglass38]

Holy Tony Robbins, Batman! If that last post (and this whole thread) doesn't get you excited about the Ball Python market and your potential role in it, than you need to check your pulse, because you are most likely dead! Adam, much thanks for laying it out in understandable terms. I for one get giddy when I think about what it is and what it can still become and that I can play a part in making it happen. I think Adam nailed it most when saying "PROMOTE THE ENTIRE BALL PYTHON MARKET".

By the way, I am quite envious of Jimmy in some ways. No rent, no bills AND a 19 year old hottie!?! What am I doing wrong? Oh yeah, not living in my mother's basement. That was my life about 10 yrs ago.

[ARamos8]

How much work have you done to PROMOTE the ENTIRE ball market and not just the animals that you have for sale. A good business person in this market promotes and markets ALL BALL PYTHONS …-adam

Here, here.. I have the remainder of '06 already booked as far as events, expo's, meeting / talking with breeders, etc is concerned. It's actually interesting and most importantly educational when we gather all of these different prespectives, tips and ideas on how these breeders small or large continue with their ventures. Granted no trade secrets or special projects will be disclosed but with some good sense and intuition one can put 2 and 2 together and hopefully avoid the "cut throat - price dropping" pit fall / blues. You have have to start somewhere. Might as well be smart about it. As far as the Jimmy's are concerned, they'll come and go. Cream rises to the top

[ssscales]

I agree on a solid business plan and deciding what direction they want to go in as well as short and long term goals, but what if Jimmy's plan after 2-3yrs in his parents house is to sell quality and quantity, but at a different tier of the market?

Example:

Breeder #1's plan is to produce and sell 10 Albinos at $2000 = $20,000


Jimmy's plan is to produce and sell 30 Albinos at $1000 = $30,000

Both have set their business plan and where they want to be on price. No mistake, no weekend sale, Jimmy produced 30 Albinos and wants to be at $1000ea by choice because that is the profit margin he is happy with.

Who is to say either breeder is right or wrong?

Both breeders bought the same bloodline and stock from the same source 3yrs ago, both raised their snakes with care, both have great quality, beautiful, healthy Albinos. Both have a good reputations, but nothing big and neither has ever screwed anyone over.

Breeder A is selling his Albinos for $2000, Jimmy is selling his for $1000…who's wrong?

Was either of these business plans wrong? Did either of them fail at their goal?

I agree that everyone should protect the market they are in (as I'm sure every mom and pop shop tried to do when Home Depot and Wal-Mart came to town). Is that the reality/majority or will we see more and more Jimmy's jumping in with a wad of cash from the 50-60 Pastels they sold this year for $600? I agree with your thinking Adam, I just think we will see a dozen or so Jimmy's in the next 5-10 yrs.

When it comes down to it $$$ does carry a lot of weight and for a lot of people $$$ is the determining factor depending on how much. I read your message loud and clear, just understand not everyone cares about what is best for the business as a whole and only sees how it effects them today and where they see their business plan. Maybe their plan works with the system, maybe it bucks the system.

We recently bought a new car, we visited a few dealers in the area and shopped around. Two dealers stood out in the end, one dealer had free BBQ, free drinks, music playing, great friendly sales reps that bent over backwards to answer all our questions. When it came down to it, they were $1300 higher than this other dealer and they would not budge. The other dealer was just as good, but less flash not as big as the other dealer. They gave us the same car, same options, same warranty, same package, same service for $1300 less off the lot. Plus I can have the car serviced at any dealer including the other one, so it's not like I'm locked into taking my car to them for life.

How many of you would've paid the $1300 for the BBQ chicken leg, chips and soda? I can get that for $5.00 at the corner restaurant and still save $1,295.00!

Adam is right, but how far will loyalty go when it comes to $$$ and at what price? Sure, we may go with breeder A an pay the extra $100 or $200, but how many will really blow Jimmy off when he's $1000 cheaper for the same animal and has delivered the goods time and time again? Not only that, but how many will follow Jimmy's lead?

[Adam_Wysocki]

As Jimmy grows his collection and the care of the animals takes more and more time, feeder bills grow, the money starts becoming too much to hide from the IRS, one of two things will happen ... either the quality of Jimmys product will go down, or Jimmy will realize that in order to make the same money he was making when he started he'll have to charge more.

I've been around the ball python market for 10 years now, and I've seen it time and time again ... Jimmy will most likely end up burning people because he built and grew a business without a plan and got overwhelmed. Then Jimmy will be gone ... probably with peoples money and their animals ... and there will be a big ugly thread on the BOI about how Jimmy ripped people off.

Growth is a b!t@h and generally the great equalizer in this game.

If that car you bought had been unwashed, dirty on the inside, had an empty gas tank, and a funky smell ... you might have thought differently about that $1300.00. If the cars were truely identical, then you got a great deal, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Like I said, you can't stop the Jimmies, they will take care of themselves ... you also can't fault people for trying to get the best deal that they can ... that's just smart business. What you CAN DO, is educate people ... teach everyone that will listen that the ball python market can make everyone money for a long time if you're smart. If in doing so, over the course of 10 years, you convince one person not to be a Jimmy and to do things right and sell animals for what they are worth, you've done a good thing for yourself and your customers. If everyone that invests in a ball python breeding project does the same, in 25 years we'll ALL still be making money.

-adam

[ssscales]

And all I wanted to know, was the price of 06 Pieds.
Great information though!

[Adam_Wysocki]

And all I wanted to know, was the price of 06 Pieds.

Same as 05 pieds.

Great information though!

I agree. Fantastic discussion. I still can't believe anyone actually reads my BS!!

-adam

[JLC]

Do we have any members named Jimmy? They could develop a complex!