Temp Problems - Thoughts on what I did?

[lX V1P3R Xl]

Do the UTH work for the AP cages as well? I currently have the standard ZooMed UTH with a standard thermostat. I could just flip it over to the new tank along with a RHP (which would be on a new thermostat) unless you guy's think that's a dangerous move.

I have had the UTH and thermostat for over 13 years now though and I don't know the equipment's lifespan. I've had her since she was born and got the set up back then. I suppose that would probably be considered "skimping" on the thermostat and UTH but I didn't really have an issue with temps until I just moved in to the house recently. Plus, that's what was recommended to me at the time and I haven't really looked back.

I've been monitering room temps in separate rooms of the house and they typically range 68-72 so far. It seems that 60's is the range where you guys recommend something heating the bottom as well but is high 60's acceptable as room temps to allow sole dependance on a RHP? Also, one other thing. What about the cold side? Do you guys just leave that as is then? On my glass cage, I actually have another UTH with a separate thermostat set to around 80 on the cold side.

I did place an order for the T3 this afternoon. Fortunately for me, my issue came up around black friday so I got 10% off at AP. I also found a Herpstat 1 or 2 for 10% off as well. Pending what you guys recommend on the additional UTH or RHP only situation, I'll order that. If I can safely rely on just a RHP with no bottom heat, I'll just do the herpstat 1.

Like I said in an earlier post, I want to do this right so I'm looking into a Pro Products Pro heat even though this is all costing big $. Their website is really weird though and gives no information on size recommendations or costs. I guess I just have to contact them and they give me sizes and costs at that time? Strange way to order what seems to be a fairly common item people are getting, but if you're the best at what you do, you can do what you want I guess... haha.

As far as substrate goes, I use paper towels (pictured above) and have been doing so for about 10 years. I started out with other kinds but it was messy and would give me allergy issues. If you have any suggestions on that, I'm open as well. I use a warm hide and cool side hide as one should. Now that I'll have more space, I upgrade the water dish to something bigger.

I appreciate the help on this from you all. Hopefully people in the future with similar issues will be able to reference this thread as well. I'm not new to the game and I feel I knew what I was doing with the set up I had, but when it comes to these "pro-looking" set ups I didn't know anything. The house temperature issues really threw me into a loop. I actually think there's something wrong with the house heating system, but that's not a problem for here lol.

[Malum Argenteum]

UTHs/heat mats/heat tape are a good way to provide a warm surface for belly heat. They don't heat the air (much at all), and they don't provide a gradient (the snake is either on the heat or off the heat). Just belly heat "works" for lots of people's snakes, apparently, but it is far less than ideal.

With an RHP you should be able to put it on the warm side, and the PVC insulates well enough that the cool side stays in a reasonable zone. It may be that in a cool room it would be better to have the RHP slightly away from one end (so that the cool side catches a little more heat). And as mentioned, if the rrom is really cool, an additional underbelly heat source might be beneficial (I put my bottommost enclosures on a sheet of styro insulation to help keep the bottoms a little warmer, and I use coco chip substrate which retains some heat).

Yep, the Pro Products sales experience is weird. It is useful, though -- you tell him the snake species, enclosure size and material, and room ambient temp and he figures out what size RHP you need. I use some VE RHPs too and they've been fine, so if you want to keep things familiar that might be a good option for you.

The 'standard thermostat' has no safety features. This means that if the probe gets knocked out of place, the thermostat will keep pumping power to the heat source (Herpstats can be set to sound an alarm and shut off in this sort of 'can't reach set temp' situation).

[lX V1P3R Xl]

UTHs/heat mats/heat tape are a good way to provide a warm surface for belly heat. They don't heat the air (much at all), and they don't provide a gradient (the snake is either on the heat or off the heat). Just belly heat "works" for lots of people's snakes, apparently, but it is far less than ideal.

With an RHP you should be able to put it on the warm side, and the PVC insulates well enough that the cool side stays in a reasonable zone. It may be that in a cool room it would be better to have the RHP slightly away from one end (so that the cool side catches a little more heat). And as mentioned, if the rrom is really cool, an additional underbelly heat source might be beneficial (I put my bottommost enclosures on a sheet of styro insulation to help keep the bottoms a little warmer, and I use coco chip substrate which retains some heat).

Yes, it's for belly heat. My question was more so that with my room temperature range (68-72) do you guys think that it is nescessary to have both a UTH and a RHP or should I be good with just a RHP. Also that if that same type ZooMed UTH would work on the AP cage (wasn't sure if it would be bad for the plastic or something) but it sounds like based on your answer, a UTH on AP should be fine. Leaving just the - do you guys think it's necessary in my scenario to have both?

[dakski]

Yes, it's for belly heat. My question was more so that with my room temperature range (68-72) do you guys think that it is nescessary to have both a UTH and a RHP or should I be good with just a RHP. Also that if that same type ZooMed UTH would work on the AP cage (wasn't sure if it would be bad for the plastic or something) but it sounds like based on your answer, a UTH on AP should be fine. Leaving just the - do you guys think it's necessary in my scenario to have both?

To be clear, it is difficut to know 100% for sure what you will need. Environmental/room temps and humidity, substrate, hides and placement, etc. all play a role.

I think in a 3X2' an RHP will be fine. I would not use the UTH to start unless you want to spring for a Herpstat 2 and then it is arbitrary (the limiting factor being cost).

A UTH on a proper thermostat is fine on an AP tank. Heat tape is more uniform and probably more efficient. It is designed for PVC type tanks. However, a UTH on a proper thermostat is ok.

If you want heat tape, a 2'X1' section is about $17.

https://www.reptilebasics.com/heat-t...ape-connected/

RHP's running enough to heat an entire tank at your potential temps could create ground temps that are too hot directly under it. I have 6x2X1, 4X2X1', and 4X2X1.5' tanks, and run both heat tape and RHP (on the warm side) and heat tape on the cool side. Why? In the winter when it gets (high) 60's in my reptile room, running the RHP to create proper temps on the cool side could make it too hot on the warm side. Additionally, I am huge proponent of belly heat for digestion. I run heat tape on the hot side to give me more control as well. I run it on the cool side to maintain proper cool side ground temps and have more control.

For my BP, for example, who is in a 4X2X1.5' enclosure, has about 88F on the warm side and because of the height and size (amount of air in the tank) of the tank, to maintain temps at 78-80F on the cool side, it can make it too hot on the warm side. Answer? Heat tape on the cool side maintains ground temps at 78F.

In a smaller enclosure, especially with less height, an RHP should be able to heat the warm side and cool side without issue.

However, IMO, the best thing would be to get a thermostat that can handle 2 devices and have both. Worst case is you set the UTH to 80F or less and it is a backup and/or prevents the RHP from working too hard. To be clear, I would run the UTH on the warm side in a 3X2' to start, not on the cool side.

Again, optimal vs. necessary is the issue here.

I think optimal is both. Necessary is an RHP.

Very quickly on belly heat. Heat = health and digestion. A BP will probably spend more time on the cool side except when digesting. My snakes also often go into the warm side hide when they are going to shed. Since they are cold blooded and heat is needed for digestion, it is up to nature or the keeper to provide that heat. Belly heat means easy digestion. Further, things like hides and substrate can mean that the ground temperature (which is what matters the most) can be different than desired without a under tank heating source.

When I check temps in my tanks, with an IR temp gun, I look or ground temps that meet the animal's requirements. I do not worry as much about the air temp on the ceiling or the middle of the tank, especially with BP (a ground snake vs. my carpet python, for example, who climbs a lot and uses every inch of the 4X2X1.5' he is in). I want that to be adequate, but I am more interested in ground temps being optimal.

Again, optimal is both an under tank heat source and an RHP on the warm side. However, 90% you are probably fine with an RHP.

The question is really do you want to spend more for either 2 thermostats, or ideally, one that controls two devices?

[lX V1P3R Xl]

Thanks for the detailed answer, it's appreciated. I have also always liked the idea of belly heat for digestion as well. I think what I'm going to do is spend the extra $ and get the herpstat that handles two. Since my UTH are pretty old at this point and a bit bent since I had to shove the thermostat under there, I'll just get some heat tape as well because that's pretty cheap. Then I'll put it on BOTH hot and cold sides. During winter I will run the cold side (when she typically isn't eating much) to help control bottom heat when it's cold, and then plug in the warm side instead during spring-fall when she's eating to aid in digestion. How does that sound?

I did finally find what seems to be a good video on how to set up the heat panels so I feel better about it now that I have a visual aid. The hardest part will be to recreate how he set up his thermostat sensor. Otherwise, it shouldn't be too bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmrtA7t7Dcc

It's interesting that you say the BP's typically stay on the cold side except when digestion. Mine has always been on the warm side. However, now that I temporarily have a heat light above her cage for the warm side (88-90), she's been staying on her cold side (77-80). I didn't like that she's been on her cold side so much with all the issues I'm having but now that makes me less concerned. I did buy an IR gun in the early days of my BP so I already have that and have been using it.

[Malum Argenteum]

How does that sound?

I would recommend running the same heat program and setup year round.

It's interesting that you say the BP's typically stay on the cold side except when digestion. Mine has always been on the warm side. However, now that I temporarily have a heat light above her cage for the warm side (88-90), she's been staying on her cold side (77-80). I didn't like that she's been on her cold side so much with all the issues I'm having but now that makes me less concerned. I did buy an IR gun in the early days of my BP so I already have that and have been using it.

If a snake is always on the warm side, the snake is saying that the cool side is too cool (and maybe the warm side is too cool, too, if the snake never warms up enough to leave it).

If a snake is always on the cool side, the snake is saying that the warm side is too warm (and maybe the cool side is too warm, too, if the snake never cools off enough to leave it).

If a snake varies its positions between the warm side and the cool side according to a routine that makes sense (i.e. warm side to digest, and then varying between warm and cool during other periods, and often somewhere in the gradient between the extremes), then that's a clue that the temp choices are what the snake prefers. This is actually how researchers figure out the preferred body temperature of a species: they provide a gradient and see where the animal tends to hang out, and they measure the temp there; they do this for a bunch of snakes and average the results.

[dakski]

Thanks for the detailed answer, it's appreciated. I have also always liked the idea of belly heat for digestion as well. I think what I'm going to do is spend the extra $ and get the herpstat that handles two. Since my UTH are pretty old at this point and a bit bent since I had to shove the thermostat under there, I'll just get some heat tape as well because that's pretty cheap. Then I'll put it on BOTH hot and cold sides. During winter I will run the cold side (when she typically isn't eating much) to help control bottom heat when it's cold, and then plug in the warm side instead during spring-fall when she's eating to aid in digestion. How does that sound?

I did finally find what seems to be a good video on how to set up the heat panels so I feel better about it now that I have a visual aid. The hardest part will be to recreate how he set up his thermostat sensor. Otherwise, it shouldn't be too bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmrtA7t7Dcc

It's interesting that you say the BP's typically stay on the cold side except when digestion. Mine has always been on the warm side. However, now that I temporarily have a heat light above her cage for the warm side (88-90), she's been staying on her cold side (77-80). I didn't like that she's been on her cold side so much with all the issues I'm having but now that makes me less concerned. I did buy an IR gun in the early days of my BP so I already have that and have been using it.

I will clarify. I was not descriptive enough.

BP Temp Behavior that I have noticed in Shayna (12 year old female BP).

Tank Setup: 4X2X1.5 PVC Tank

Warm side Temps: 84-88F with an 86F average (depending on if under RHP or not).

NOTE: Shayna is an Albino Spider Morph. Spiders are prone to neurological issues and I was told keeping the temps a degree or two cooler can be better for her. She has no issues digesting and I figure better safe than sorry. 87-88F average is fine as well. 89F is probably getting a little warm and over 90F is no good.

Middle of the tank: 80-82F

Cool side: 78-80F

Shayna spends 40% on the cool side and 45% in the middle of the tank normally. She spend the majority of her time on the warm side to digest and when in shed. This is resting behavior. When moving around the tank she is not particularly discriminant.

My point earlier in the thread was that warm side is not where she is most of the time unless digesting.

I will add that most of my snakes spend the majority of their of time in the middle or cool side. The exception is probably Yafe, my Carpet Python. He is all over the place. High, low, warm, cool, etc. However, he is a display animal and rarely uses his hides. He will lay on his hides, hang on his branches, etc. Usually only in hide when shedding.

The fact that my tanks are big enough to allow for a dramatic gradient may contribute to this. In 3X2' you may not notice as much as it will be mostly cool or warm side. This is not a bad thing and a 3X2' will be fine for you BP - I am just pointing out that it might be more difficult to observe the same behavior I have.

[Homebody]

1. LED lighting - If the room gets natural light through a window, then I don't think it's necessary. That should be enough for your bp to maintain a day/night cycle. LEDs can, however, be very helpful during cage maintenance. I don't use any lighting in my enclosure because I don't imagine that a shy, nocturnal animal would like bright lights.
2. Heating - a RHP supplemented with heat tape is the best way to go. I don't think the RHP alone will be enough. I have a 3 x 2 x 14.5" enclosure heated with an 80w VE RHP. It maintains a nice basking spot, but the cold side of my enclosure is room temperature. If you had substrate to absorb and radiate the heat from the RHP, then the RHP might do a better job at raising your ambient temp. Paper towels won't do that. Like you, I also don't use substrate, I use Repticarpet, so, I use heat tape to maintain the minimum temperature.
3. Thermostats - I've used on/off thermostats for the few years that I've been keeping without incident. I do, however, have a Herpstat 2 at the top of my Christmas list both because they do a better job of maintaining a constant temperature and because of the additional safety features.

[lX V1P3R Xl]

Interesting, perhaps my temps have been off then all these years if she stayed on her warm side for the most part. That being said though, I have been using the IR gun for a long time. The warm side would never get higher than 87-88. The cool side was always 79-80 without turning the cool side UTH on. The apartment complex I lived in had free heat so I'd just jack up the room temps to 80 all the time haha. It was warm for me of course, but I got used to it so didn't care and it solved any ambient temp issues.

With what you guys said, I'll get the herpstat 2, use heat tape on the warm side only, and target the 86-88 range for both RHP and heat tape. On the cool side I'll have no heat source for now. If it ends up being too cold, I can add another round of heat tape on that side with my current thermostat and upgrade to herpstat later when I pay off my credit card bill after all this haha. I'm also planning on getting some repticarpet as well like homebody mentioned. The dimentions of the new cage would make paper towels a pain to deal with. I wish I could use natural substrate, but it just makes my allergies go nuts.

Homebody - do you use heat tape on the cool side as well on your 3x2? Or is it just the warm side? It sounds like you don't have anything on the room temperature cool side, but it's tough to tell exactly what you have.

[Homebody]

Homebody - do you use heat tape on the cool side as well on your 3x2? Or is it just the warm side? It sounds like you don't have anything on the room temperature cool side, but it's tough to tell exactly what you have.

Sorry. My enclosure is a diy plywood thing, so it's a little hard to describe. Here's some pics.





Overall, it's a 3x2x2. It's divided by a pvc sheet with a 3 inch hole to allow my snake move between the top and bottom. The top half is heated with a RHP during the day. It provides the basking spot. Cool side of the top isn't heated, so it's room temperature. Lower half is a tub. I heat the tub with heat tape day and night to maintain minimum temps.

The top half of my enclosure is roughly the same dimensions as what you're getting. If I was you, I would use your RHP to heat the basking spot and run heat tape under the entire length of your enclosure to maintain minimum temps. Your Herpstat 2 could regulate both heat sources.