Question about bioactive house snake setup

[Darknugget6588]

Hello I'm new both around here and to the reptile keeping hobby and was hoping for a bit of advice from my elders. So my query is I'm about to get a male black African house snake and I'm setting it up in a fully planted bioactive set up. Well that's the hope at least. Now I've done a vast about of research on how I should keep the parameters of the snake humidity and temp wise and made sure to pick plants that would thrive is said conditions. But my worry is that I've read that african house snake are a bit of a burrowing species and I'm afraid that he'll uproot the plants and kill them. So if anyone has any experience keeping african house snakes in bioactive planted set ups and could weight in I'd be very appreciative of the advice. Thanks very much.

[Malum Argenteum]

I don't keep house snakes. I breed quite a few snake species (boas, colubrids), and sell them to many first time reptile owners (both online and at expos, and picked up at my home). Based on my experiences with new keepers I always recommend keeping the animal in the most simple way that reliably leads to success with that species. Once a keeper gets the hang of basic care, gets to know their animal (both the species and the individual specimen), and understands what makes that animal do better or worse in captivity, then they might consider some husbandry method that's more complex. There really is enough to figure out about keeping a reptile without complicating things unnecessarily.

I keep many animal enclosures that many people would call "bioactive", and they're quite challenging to get right; they have a lot of moving parts, so to speak. I personally wouldn't keep any species in such an enclosure that doesn't (capital N) Need it just to live out a full life cycle.

There's a continuum of enclosure styles/methods from paper liner in a tub to "full bioactive". For almost all species, something in the middle is going to give the most benefit with the least chance of adding stuff that's likely to go wrong. Using more rather than less natural materials (so, a natural substrate rather than paper liner; cork bark hides rather than plastic hides; wood branches rather than a plastic pirate ship) is a great way to improve a reptile's captive life without adding things that are possibly more trouble than they're worth. This is probably best called a 'naturalistic' enclosure.

Plants, which have their own care requirements that can be at odds with those of the snake, can be more trouble than they're worth because they're not going to give much benefit to most snake species. A snake will need to have its poop removed anyway, so the 'waste processing' feature claimed of "bioactive" enclosures isn't going to be relevant anyway (unless the enclosure is at least a handful of square meters). So, attempting a "bioactive" enclosure very often ends up being functionally a naturalistic enclosure, but one with a lot of extra elements that aren't doing much work (plants and their lighting, microfauna, fancy substrates that are more suited for the plants than they are for the target species).

Even some naturalistic elements can have serious downsides. Substrate and hides both complicate heating by being insulators, and so whether a heating device/method will work well with a certain substrate or hide material is a serious consideration. If a keeper starts simple and makes husbandry decisions according to actual needs of the animal, the road to success might be less rocky.

[Bogertophis]

Personally, I think if you want to keep snakes, keep snakes, & if you want to keep plants, by all means keep them...but trying to combine their needs in a microcosm & hoping they all survive is a tall order, especially for a first time snake-keeper. Snakes just don't share our priorities & bioactive seems like a lot more trouble than it's worth...apart from aesthetics & your satisfaction if it succeeds, bioactive does nothing to improve the health & survival of a snake, & I can imagine it could add a lot of stress to the snake if you have to keep adjusting the plants & the substrate to make it work, especially when the snake is new. It's way more important to me that my snakes feel "safe" so they eat & thrive. If a "big scary human" has to keep invading their space every time they take a dump (you do realize it's more than bioactive can handle, don't you?) you might end up with a nervous snake that won't eat.

My own preferences include using scenic backdrops (outside the glass- I much prefer glass tanks for what I keep- just colubrids these days), & natural branches & driftwood for climbing, to appear as natural as possible. Sometimes I also wire a shallow woven basket to the branches as a "tree-house"- many snakes enjoy some type of "sky-hide" as a resting platform. But I'd never do bio-active for any of my snakes, though I think it's a good idea for some other smaller creatures.

[Malum Argenteum]

But I'd never do bio-active for any of my snakes, though I think it's a good idea for some other smaller creatures.

Yes, some herp species really aren't practical to keep alive long term in "traditional" housing. Smaller frogs (Dendrobatids), some of the geckos (mourning geckos; probably some of the other dwarf geckos such as Sphaerodactylus) are like this. I keep a few frog species that eat only springtails when they're very young, and need those springtails to be available at all times. These smaller species that are fairly intolerant of deviations in moisture levels are well-served by a mass of plants that transpire water into the air and provide a range of small moist hiding spots. And many of these species must carry out their full life cycle (mating, egg laying, hatching, growout of young) in the parents' enclosure -- so that enclosure cannot be cleaned by replacing substrate since the eggs get scrambled and the young don't recover from the upheaval.

These needs aren't relevant to virtually any snakes, though there probably are a few; I've not kept any Storeria species, for example, which seem interesting but are reported to be fairly poor captives, and this may be because they're prime candidates for a well thought out bioactive enclosure tailored to their specific needs. And providing for needs that the animal doesn't have makes little sense.

[Bogertophis]

Yes, some herp species really aren't practical to keep alive long term in "traditional" housing. Smaller frogs (Dendrobatids), some of the geckos (mourning geckos; probably some of the other dwarf geckos such as Sphaerodactylus) are like this. I keep a few frog species that eat only springtails when they're very young, and need those springtails to be available at all times. These smaller species that are fairly intolerant of deviations in moisture levels are well-served by a mass of plants that transpire water into the air and provide a range of small moist hiding spots. And many of these species must carry out their full life cycle (mating, egg laying, hatching, growout of young) in the parents' enclosure -- so that enclosure cannot be cleaned by replacing substrate since the eggs get scrambled and the young don't recover from the upheaval.

These needs aren't relevant to virtually any snakes, though there probably are a few; I've not kept any Storeria species, for example, which seem interesting but are reported to be fairly poor captives, and this may be because they're prime candidates for a well thought out bioactive enclosure tailored to their specific needs. And providing for needs that the animal doesn't have makes little sense.

Yes, all this! ^ ^ ^ I was trying to think of any snake species that might be exceptions, where bio-active enclosures are essential, but I couldn't. If you're not keeping herps that actually do better with bio-active or truly require it, I'd suggest you beware of all the seductive advertising to sell it to you. It's a business, after all, & sellers aren't going to talk you out of it.

[Darknugget6588]

Hello I just wanted to update on my new guy first snake that I decided to set up in a bioactive set up. Even though everyone on here told me it was a bad idea I did hours upon hours of research and I can comfortably say that Dusk is not only fine but thriving. When he was shipped to me he caught a respiratory infection but after a trip to the vet and an antibiotic shot he's perfectly healthy now. I've had him for 3 months and he consistently eats every week and has shed in one full piece for me twice and his loving life. So I just want to tell people in the nicest way possible to not get stuck in your ways and just try to shut down people using new methods for their animals if they've done their research. I can respect your guys experience but I would implore you to be open to knew ideas and ways of thinking. Don't just supply the bear minimum. Give them a taste of home if you can both my little man and every plant in the enclosure is growing like a weed. I'm not trying to call anybody out or make anybody feel bad I just want people to be more willing to keep an open mind about our lovely hobby of reptile keeping.

[dakski]

Hello I just wanted to update on my new guy first snake that I decided to set up in a bioactive set up. Even though everyone on here told me it was a bad idea I did hours upon hours of research and I can comfortably say that Dusk is not only fine but thriving. When he was shipped to me he caught a respiratory infection but after a trip to the vet and an antibiotic shot he's perfectly healthy now. I've had him for 3 months and he consistently eats every week and has shed in one full piece for me twice and his loving life. So I just want to tell people in the nicest way possible to not get stuck in your ways and just try to shut down people using new methods for their animals if they've done their research. I can respect your guys experience but I would implore you to be open to knew ideas and ways of thinking. Don't just supply the bear minimum. Give them a taste of home if you can both my little man and every plant in the enclosure is growing like a weed. I'm not trying to call anybody out or make anybody feel bad I just want people to be more willing to keep an open mind about our lovely hobby of reptile keeping.

I am happy to hear your snake is doing well (especially after an RI) and that your experience has been good with a bioactive enclosure. Kudos to you for doing the research and making it work. I hope that continues.

I did not post on this thread previously, but want to comment on your point about being oped minded.

Many of the people that ask questions on this forum are having issues with basic care. Many of the people who have been posting here for years and have a lot of experience (including those who did respond to your initial post) have seen way too many occurrences of basic needs not being met, keepers not wanting to listen to good advice, and frankly, horrible things happening to snakes and devastated keeper's because of the points just listed.

I can almost guarantee that the people who posted earlier on this thread had your snake and your experience as a new reptile keeper in mind. Given what was said above and that this forum is excellent at handing out good advice and without putting people down etc. I implore you to spend some time here and give it a second chance. Other sites and places that should be resources tell people what they want to hear. This forum does not generally do that. Also, people tend not to speak out of turn. We speak on what we know.

I ask that (if you choose to spend more time here) you detail what you have done to make your bioactive enclosure successful and the research you have done to facilitate that. It might be of great help to other keepers interested in doing a bioactive setup.

Again, congrats on making it work and keep us posted.

[Malum Argenteum]

I'm glad your snake appears to be doing well.

With respect, 3 months is not nearly long enough to make a judgment about any care program, nor is a sample size of one. I also understand that house snakes are generally very tolerant of less than ideal conditions, so aren't the best species to use for making a judgment about care protocols.

Unfortunately, there's a strong tendency for supporters of novel methodologies in all areas of life to have a confirmation bias -- that is, to take apparent successes as proof and to dismiss counterexamples (this is why the downsides of all sorts of practices sometimes take an unreasonably long time to become apparent).

Sometimes a husbandry methodology works in spite of its features, rather than because of them (common in the more durable species, since they don't give signs of less than ideal conditions), and there are a lot of examples of this among different herp species: ball pythons being fed live, or kept in glass enclosures; the current uptick in multispecies cohabitation among other taxa (or at least uptick in visibility of it); causal and poorly monitored use of UVB for species that don't require it.

I breed and sell a couple hundred herps a year, and not only do I get some later feedback from people who buy my animals online, but I also speak to people who have nothing to lose by being honest about their experiences when they visit my expo table without the intent to buy anything (which is virtually every visitor). I also help moderate a longstanding herp forum where we get lots of people rolling in with 'my animals are dying, what's wrong?'. So I get to hear some of what works and what doesn't, so my comments don't come from a place of closed mindedness (except that I'm closed minded to anything that has more risks than benefits, since that seems to be one thing that gets animals killed -- the other big one is cutting corners on necessary equipment and enclosure features). And as I pointed out above, I keep a number of animals "bioactive" (14 enclosures, currently).

So I guess I'd caution not to necessarily consider contrary recommendations to be coming from a lack of open mindedness simply because of one very short term experience. Again, what matters is that your snake is doing well, and for that I'm happy.

[Malum Argenteum]

I'm glad your snake appears to be doing well.

With respect, 3 months is not nearly long enough to make a judgment about any care program, nor is a sample size of one. Nor is it possible to know whether a care program is better than some other one, and in what ways it is better, without having experience with both. I also understand that house snakes are generally very tolerant of less than ideal conditions, so they aren't the best species to use for making a judgment about care protocols in any event.

Unfortunately, there's a strong tendency for supporters of novel methodologies in all areas of life to have a confirmation bias -- that is, to take apparent successes as proof and to dismiss counterexamples (this is why the downsides of all sorts of practices sometimes take an unreasonably long time to become apparent). That's why there's a lot more than examples of success to appeal to in figuring out how to care for a given species.

Sometimes a husbandry methodology works in spite of its features, rather than because of them (common in the more durable species, since they don't give signs of less than ideal conditions), and there are a lot of examples of this among different herp species: ball pythons being fed live, or kept in glass enclosures; the current uptick in multispecies cohabitation among other taxa (or at least uptick in visibility of it); causal and poorly monitored use of UVB for species that don't require it. Some of these are associated with a common understanding of their disadvantages, and some are not (yet).

I breed and sell a couple hundred herps a year, and not only do I get some later feedback (some good, some not) from people who buy my animals online, but I also speak to people who have nothing to lose by being honest about their experiences when they visit my expo table without the intent to buy anything (which is virtually every visitor). I also help moderate a longstanding herp forum where we get lots of people rolling in with 'my animals are dying, what's wrong?'. I get to hear some of what works and what doesn't, so my comments don't come from a place of closed mindedness (except that I'm closed minded to anything that has more risks than benefits, since that seems to be one thing that gets animals killed -- the other big one is cutting corners on necessary equipment and enclosure features). And as I pointed out above, I keep a number of animals "bioactive" (14 enclosures, currently). So I'd consider myself to have a pretty open mind, and that comes from at least a basic understanding of different care methods. I sort of thought that my extensive post above (#2) made that apparent, and I'm a bit disappointed that it did not.

I guess I'd caution not to necessarily consider contrary recommendations to be coming from a lack of open mindedness simply because of one very short term experience. Again, what matters is that your snake is doing well, and for that I'm happy.

[Darknugget6588]

I'm glad your snake appears to be doing well.

With respect, 3 months is not nearly long enough to make a judgment about any care program, nor is a sample size of one. Nor is it possible to know whether a care program is better than some other one, and in what ways it is better, without having experience with both. I also understand that house snakes are generally very tolerant of less than ideal conditions, so they aren't the best species to use for making a judgment about care protocols in any event.

Unfortunately, there's a strong tendency for supporters of novel methodologies in all areas of life to have a confirmation bias -- that is, to take apparent successes as proof and to dismiss counterexamples (this is why the downsides of all sorts of practices sometimes take an unreasonably long time to become apparent). That's why there's a lot more than examples of success to appeal to in figuring out how to care for a given species.

Sometimes a husbandry methodology works in spite of its features, rather than because of them (common in the more durable species, since they don't give signs of less than ideal conditions), and there are a lot of examples of this among different herp species: ball pythons being fed live, or kept in glass enclosures; the current uptick in multispecies cohabitation among other taxa (or at least uptick in visibility of it); causal and poorly monitored use of UVB for species that don't require it. Some of these are associated with a common understanding of their disadvantages, and some are not (yet).

I breed and sell a couple hundred herps a year, and not only do I get some later feedback (some good, some not) from people who buy my animals online, but I also speak to people who have nothing to lose by being honest about their experiences when they visit my expo table without the intent to buy anything (which is virtually every visitor). I also help moderate a longstanding herp forum where we get lots of people rolling in with 'my animals are dying, what's wrong?'. I get to hear some of what works and what doesn't, so my comments don't come from a place of closed mindedness (except that I'm closed minded to anything that has more risks than benefits, since that seems to be one thing that gets animals killed -- the other big one is cutting corners on necessary equipment and enclosure features). And as I pointed out above, I keep a number of animals "bioactive" (14 enclosures, currently). So I'd consider myself to have a pretty open mind, and that comes from at least a basic understanding of different care methods. I sort of thought that my extensive post above (#2) made that apparent, and I'm a bit disappointed that it did not.

I guess I'd caution not to necessarily consider contrary recommendations to be coming from a lack of open mindedness simply because of one very short term experience. Again, what matters is that your snake is doing well, and for that I'm happy.

I was never trying to claim that my care method was superior than any you tried to peddle to me. I was just stating with someone dedicated enough and willing to put in the work and do research beforehand that a more complex method of caretaking can be just as viable as the more beginner/ standard methods. I've never been the kind of person too just get or no things on a whim. I planned this whole set up and process out over the course of 7 months from collecting babies off the plants I wished to add. To researching the area those plants originated from to see if the humidity and light levels would easily coincide with the snake species I was looking for. To growing those plants for 3 months myself and getting new cuttings to make sure there would be no possibility of any outside pesticides or bacteria to be introduced into the enclosure. To purchasing starter colonies of powder blue and dairy cow isopods as well as springtails to start cultivating to have an extra supply to reintroduce if for whatever reason they didn't take off in the vivarium. To pre planting and introducing the clean up crew a full 2 months in advance to every everything time to take root and colonies to get a strong start. I was pain staking in every detail and aspect of this process which of course you couldn't have know but no one sold me starter kit and said here you go throw something in this. Your original comments just really came across as no that's all wrong you need to do it this way otherwise this animal is going to suffer and like you said it's only been 3 months. However I've noticed nothing but positive behaviors from him since he got over his shipping RI after the first month. He eats like clockwork once a week as they're colubrids so small meals more often. After every 3 meals he sheds never with any problem granted I'll give you it was a challenge to keep the tank at around the 80 to 90 percent humidity his species requires. And as he is a nocturnal species I sadly don't get to see him much but they're are tracks from him all throughout the tank and I make sure to move his frozen thawed to different spots after leaving scent trails throughout so he doesn't get bored and can keep his mind stimulated. Granted what you said is true this species is more on the hardy side but why would you not pick something easier and harder as your first time trying something new. I'm not saying you should get an emerald tree boa as your first snake and set up a bioactive for it and it'll be easy. My whole point about all this is I can respect you've been doing this a long time and that experience means a lot but I think you can try and illustrate your points and your knowledge in a way that doesn't shut down the ideas of people trying to get into this hobby and keeping these wonderful creatures.