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  1. #11
    Registered User Python_Liqueur's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Amoeba are easy to treat for safely, & some keepers do it routinely with new acquisitions, or for sure with any that aren't quite right (if they have feeding issues, or weird stool, etc).

    The drug is called Flagyl- (aka- metronidazole). You might have heard of it before, it's used for fish ("Fish-Zole" is sold in pet stores OTC for aquarium fish) & for farm animals ("Metro-Zole) likewise sold OTC. You have to be able to calculate the right dose for snakes & administer it (by mouth- that's what the abbreviation "PO" means) & it definitely works, & dosed correctly, it's very safe for snakes. Yes, I've used it. It also tends to stimulate a snake's appetite, which really might have helped. Flagyl is also given to humans for some conditions too, btw. It's not even expensive. Of course, a vet could also supply & administer it too.

    https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/...some%20species.
    Oh wow, thank you! Very sad to find something that could have helped him that's so simple, but by golly I will definitely be doing this now, with help from my vet until I'm comfortable doing it myself. Do people usually just give it with their newbies, or is it something they give every now and then even after they're settled in? Also, if I was to bring the little girl for a quick checkup and a dose of that, how much stress do you think that will be putting on her? I was going to wait for a physical until she was over 200 grams and wasn't being picky (though she does eat) but I don't really want to wait now that I've got concerns, especially when they were from the same breeder and in the same rack system.

  2. #12
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur View Post
    ...
    He had not eaten for a month when he passed away, and had only eaten twice for me in the two months I had him. I'm heartbroken to think he could have starved, but I know it's very much a possibility... ...
    It's still impossible for us to say- not knowing how well-fed he was when he came into your possession- see? If he was underfed from the start, then yes, eating only once a month for 2 months, then nothing for another month could very well have been starvation. It also depends on what (how much) you actually got him to eat when he did feed for you- there's a big difference between a rat pinkie & a hopper mouse, for example. What exactly did you feed him? I think you said he was small? Mouse pinkies are not even a snack for BPs, & mouse fuzzies are marginal meals- only for really tiny BPs, & even then I'd feed several. Rat pinkies are bigger than mouse pinkies, but still mostly water. Most BPs (of normal size) are actually started on mouse hoppers (weaned mice, eyes open & very active if alive). Mouse hoppers are about half the size of adult mice.

    I know how bad it feels to lose a pet...that's something most of us have experienced, & sometimes it is a result of, or compounded by, our unintentional mistakes. Don't beat yourself up, just learn from any mistakes made.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  4. #13
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur View Post
    Oh wow, thank you! Very sad to find something that could have helped him that's so simple, but by golly I will definitely be doing this now, with help from my vet until I'm comfortable doing it myself. Do people usually just give it with their newbies, or is it something they give every now and then even after they're settled in? Also, if I was to bring the little girl for a quick checkup and a dose of that, how much stress do you think that will be putting on her? I was going to wait for a physical until she was over 200 grams and wasn't being picky (though she does eat) but I don't really want to wait now that I've got concerns, especially when they were from the same breeder and in the same rack system.
    Yes, hindsight can be frustrating & sad. What we don't know can definitely hurt both our pets & us.

    From the linked material-
    Metronidazole (Flagyl). Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 100-200 mg/kg PO, repeated in 2 weeks. A dose of 40-50 mg/kg PO should be used in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. There are reports that Flagyl works as an appetite stimulant in reptiles. This drug is also good for anaerobic bacterial infections. A recent pharmacokinetics report recommends a dose of 20 mg/kg PO Q 48 hours in yellow rat snakes (Kolmstetter et al. 2001).

    So no, it's not something you "do every now & then"- it's repeated after 2 weeks. ^ ^ ^

    And if other internal parasites are suspected, Panacur is also very useful. (snakes can have worms) Also from the linked material above:
    Fenbendazole (Panacur). A good parasiticide for intestinal nematodes. Can be given orally at a dose of 50-100 mg/kg and repeated in 2 weeks.

    https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/he...nd%20livestock.
    "Panacur is the brand name of an oral deworming medication with the active ingredient fenbendazole. It is used to treat internal parasites in domestic animals, including dogs, cats, horses, and livestock."

    Medical issues for snakes aren't the "fun part" but if you're thinking about keeping more & breeding, it's stuff you need to learn about.
    And-or have the money to pay a good vet who has a degree & experience with treating all these things.

    Ideally, no matter what kind of pets you keep, there's always more expenses than just the day to day cost of keeping them, & it's recommended to always have some savings put aside for medical issues- that's being a responsible owner, & usually means less grief when things go wrong, because animals are living creatures just like us, & sooner or later, health issues happen.
    Last edited by Bogertophis; 04-22-2024 at 08:35 PM.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  6. #14
    Registered User Python_Liqueur's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    It's still impossible for us to say- not knowing how well-fed he was when he came into your possession- see? If he was underfed from the start, then yes, eating only once a month for 2 months, then nothing for another month could very well have been starvation. It also depends on what (how much) you actually got him to eat when he did feed for you- there's a big difference between a rat pinkie & a hopper mouse, for example. What exactly did you feed him? I think you said he was small? Mouse pinkies are not even a snack for BPs, & mouse fuzzies are marginal meals- only for really tiny BPs, & even then I'd feed several. Rat pinkies are bigger than mouse pinkies, but still mostly water. Most BPs (of normal size) are actually started on mouse hoppers (weaned mice, eyes open & very active if alive). Mouse hoppers are about half the size of adult mice.

    I know how bad it feels to lose a pet...that's something most of us have experienced, & sometimes it is a result of, or compounded by, our unintentional mistakes. Don't beat yourself up, just learn from any mistakes made.
    I got him on January 28th, and he passed on April 11th. He was only 60 grams, and the breeder said he was on hopper mice, though said he didn't know when he ate last because his wife does that... He was absolutely terrified of hoppers, and on February 24th I tried a fuzzy mouse, which he finally ate. I managed to get him to eat another on March 2nd, and then he continued to refuse food again until he passed Mouse fuzzies were the only thing I had success in, but that's just can't be enough food... I will certainly be doing things differently if I have another hatchling struggling this much.

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  8. #15
    Registered User Python_Liqueur's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    Yes, hindsight can be frustrating & sad. What we don't know can definitely hurt both our pets & us.

    From the linked material-
    Metronidazole (Flagyl). Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 100-200 mg/kg PO, repeated in 2 weeks. A dose of 40-50 mg/kg PO should be used in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. There are reports that Flagyl works as an appetite stimulant in reptiles. This drug is also good for anaerobic bacterial infections. A recent pharmacokinetics report recommends a dose of 20 mg/kg PO Q 48 hours in yellow rat snakes (Kolmstetter et al. 2001).

    So no, it's not something you "do every now & then"- it's repeated after 2 weeks. ^ ^ ^

    And if other internal parasites are suspected, Panacur is also very useful. (snakes can have worms) Also from the linked material above:
    Fenbendazole (Panacur). A good parasiticide for intestinal nematodes. Can be given orally at a dose of 50-100 mg/kg and repeated in 2 weeks.

    https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/he...nd%20livestock.
    "Panacur is the brand name of an oral deworming medication with the active ingredient fenbendazole. It is used to treat internal parasites in domestic animals, including dogs, cats, horses, and livestock."

    Medical issues for snakes aren't the "fun part" but if you're thinking about keeping more & breeding, it's stuff you need to learn about.
    And-or have the money to pay a good vet who has a degree & experience with treating all these things.

    Ideally, no matter what kind of pets you keep, there's always more expenses than just the day to day cost of keeping them, & it's recommended to always have some savings put aside for medical issues- that's being a responsible owner, & usually means less grief when things go wrong, because animals are living creatures just like us, & sooner or later, health issues happen.
    Thank you so much. And yeah, medical issues are not fun, but I do enjoy learning about them, so I'm sure I can manage!

    I've got a couple hundred squared away for things, and I'm working on getting a job now after I left my other because of management. Once I've got one you can be sure I'm keeping stuff aside!

    I've been planning to get this book (https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Ball...1938850459/ref) because I've seen it highly recommended for learning more advanced care and things you need to know before making any breeding plans. Do you have any opinions on it or other things to read that aren't just your basic care guide?

  9. #16
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur View Post
    Thank you so much. And yeah, medical issues are not fun, but I do enjoy learning about them, so I'm sure I can manage!

    I've got a couple hundred squared away for things, and I'm working on getting a job now after I left my other because of management. Once I've got one you can be sure I'm keeping stuff aside!

    I've been planning to get this book (https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Ball...1938850459/ref) because I've seen it highly recommended for learning more advanced care and things you need to know before making any breeding plans. Do you have any opinions on it or other things to read that aren't just your basic care guide?
    A couple hundred may sound like a lot, but it doesn't go very far. When breeding snakes, there's no guarantee that you'll break even, much less make money. Many people just lose money. Especially in BPs these days- the market is very saturated, & making more snakes that you love but can't sell & get stuck keeping or giving them away is not a good business model. It's also sad for the snakes, if you care about them, because cheap or free snakes are too often not valued for long by their new owner. Because hey, it wasn't a big investment, so? There's exceptions but that's just "human nature".

    As far as I know, that's a good read, but I haven't read it- I've kept some BPs in the past, but they're not my favorite snakes at all- just not my focus. I'd recommend reading more than one of the recent snake books actually. You might not have to buy them all- see if your library can get them for you. It can't hurt to ask. Why not start a thread asking for current recommended reading? (I'm just the wrong one to ask for BP-books.)
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  11. #17
    Bogertophis's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur View Post
    ... and the breeder said he was on hopper mice, though said he didn't know when he ate last because his wife does that....
    That's a really lame answer & I'd stay away from any "breeders" that give answers like that. IF that was true, a good breeder -one that cared & was professional- would have checked with his wife & given you an answer. My guess is that this snake wasn't eating much or at all, & he knew that but avoided admitting it so you'd take the snake off his hands. Just saying.

    And your experience with the snake showing fear of a hopper supports my guess. Probably never saw one before. There's a small chance that the snake was just stressed from being in a new home, & that's why he wasn't eating, but I would bet otherwise.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

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  13. #18
    BPnet Veteran Malum Argenteum's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Python_Liqueur View Post
    For ruling out amoeba in live animals, do you have any estimate on how much that costs? I would very much be interested in looking into that! I've actually not heard of it before, I would like to know more if you've ever got the time to educate me a little or could even just point me in the right direction of a good article!
    The cheapest way would be to send a swab out to RAL (https://www.vetdna.com/). That test is $20 (plus sampling supplies).

    A vet could diagnose with a fecal sample (not always available in non-feeding animals, though). A visit and fecal at my vet is a little over $100.

    On the Metronidazole discussion: I have used it to treat snakes (and a turtle) that aren't feeding, and that sometimes does the trick (which implies that the non-feeding was caused by amoeba in those cases). I personally would not shotgun it in an animal with no symptoms. It is also pretty far down the list of issues I consider first in a non-feeding animal -- enclosure setup/parameters; prey item undesirability; stomatitis/"mouthrot", at least)

    One problem with treating failure to feed with shotgun meds is that it can be a little slower than a vet check, and only rules out one issue among many. A vet can rule out a whole handful of things and often get the right treatment going on the day of the visit.

    On broader issues: one way that I've found pretty reliable to avoid issues like this one is to be incredibly selective about who you'll buy from and what you buy. Taking a free animal is something I would not do (I assume a seller knows what their product is worth...), nor "rescues" or deals too good to pass up.

    The ball python market is absolutely saturated to the gills; it is 100% a buyer's market. There are many hundreds of breeders to choose from, and tens of thousands of snakes. A buyer can take the time to find an absolutely solid snake from a very high quality breeder that hopefully pathogen tests their stock and still pay a fair price.

    On QT: You might consider improving your procedures since you have a few snakes and some intent to get a breeding collection going. Amoeba probably won't take a collection out, but there are viruses that will and it is worth protecting against them.
    Last edited by Malum Argenteum; 04-22-2024 at 11:30 PM.

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  15. #19
    Registered User Python_Liqueur's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    A couple hundred may sound like a lot, but it doesn't go very far. When breeding snakes, there's no guarantee that you'll break even, much less make money. Many people just lose money. Especially in BPs these days- the market is very saturated, & making more snakes that you love but can't sell & get stuck keeping or giving them away is not a good business model. It's also sad for the snakes, if you care about them, because cheap or free snakes are too often not valued for long by their new owner. Because hey, it wasn't a big investment, so? There's exceptions but that's just "human nature".

    As far as I know, that's a good read, but I haven't read it- I've kept some BPs in the past, but they're not my favorite snakes at all- just not my focus. I'd recommend reading more than one of the recent snake books actually. You might not have to buy them all- see if your library can get them for you. It can't hurt to ask. Why not start a thread asking for current recommended reading? (I'm just the wrong one to ask for BP-books.)
    Agreed, one of my big goals in getting a new job is to save up a decent amount of "surprise incident" funds... And yeah, I don't want to end up breeding up a bunch of babies that can't get good forever homes. Perhaps it would be better to look into other species, I'm interest in mexican kings as well and I'm not sure how the market for them is, but I know I don't see hoards of them everywhere. Either way though, won't be anytime soon! Lot's of research to do.

    And oh man I haven't been to the library is forever that's a great point! I feel a little bad, I loved going to the library as a kid.

  16. #20
    Registered User Python_Liqueur's Avatar
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    Re: New Hatchling Passed Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogertophis View Post
    That's a really lame answer & I'd stay away from any "breeders" that give answers like that. IF that was true, a good breeder -one that cared & was professional- would have checked with his wife & given you an answer. My guess is that this snake wasn't eating much or at all, & he knew that but avoided admitting it so you'd take the snake off his hands. Just saying.

    And your experience with the snake showing fear of a hopper supports my guess. Probably never saw one before. There's a small chance that the snake was just stressed from being in a new home, & that's why he wasn't eating, but I would bet otherwise.
    Yeah...I'm going to be much more careful and selective in the future. Lesson learned the hard way

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