Snake on Hunger Strike (Again) for 9 Months.

[Alf_uk]

I am hoping for some advice as my vet is recommending that I if i can't get my ball python to eat that PTS could be the most humane option. (Put to Sleep).

History : I previously (2021) I had feeding issues with my BP. That time he went 7/8 months without feeding. After blood tests from the vets and a course of antibiotics, + the tips from this site I got him back eating again. He then went the whole of 2022 feeding fine.

Christmas 2022 he struck my finger instead of the rat and wouldn't let go. I managed to uncoil him, and gently remove him from my thumb. (Thumb was a bit bruised, bit of blood and had a nice BP shaped mouth imprint but was fine). He hid away for a few weeks and I didn't feed him for 6-7 weeks as he wasn't interested. I took him to the vets to confirm that I hadn't damaged his jaw removing him from my thumb. ( Vet said all is good). His weight then was 1.3 KG

Since then I been trying to feed him monthly with no success.

I've double, triple and quadruple checked his setup with the " How to set-up a glass tank".
Tried all the usual tricks recommended here including

• Changing his bedding and cleaning his tank ,
  
• Using a hair dryer ,
  
• Putting a mouse/rat on-top of his cage an hr before feeding.
  
• Feeding in a different tub,
  
• Tried different sized Mice , Rats, cutting them up and exposing their brains.
  
• The vet has also recommended bathing him in Reptoboost every 2 weeks.

I had him back to the vets mid August. His weight now is 950g. My vet ran some blood tests again but these came back clean. He has started to loose his colour, the vet has said this is in indication of his body staring to shut down to save energy and they tube feed him.

He is a Bumble Bee Morph and has the spider gene. The vet has described his wobble on the higher end of the spectrum and once his head leaves the ground he cannot control it. I must stress that when he has fed before he is a very very strong feeder. When in the mood he will strike anything that goes into his cage (including my thumb). He just has "Zero" interest in food at the moment.

My vet won't tube feed again and has indicated that his "Wobble" could be one of the reasons that he goes on these hunger strikes and if his weight drops below 900g then PTS could be the most humane option.

I am looking for recommendations.

[Homebody]

The vet has described his wobble on the higher end of the spectrum and once his head leaves the ground he cannot control it.

Just spit-ballin' here. Have you tried drop feeding? For a snake that can't lift his head, it may be easier for him to eat off the ground.

[Armiyana]

Homebody could be on the nose here.
I had two shy males that have taken food aggressively a handful of times, but typically shy away. I just leave the warm prey outside of their hide overnight. It's usually gone when I go to check in the morning.

He may just be worried about your scent while you're hovering about with the food. Depending on how you removed him, he could be very sensitive about the 'big monster' he caught before.
If you can rub the prey in some extra dirty bedding before dropping that may help get your smell reduced as well.

[Bogertophis]

Sorry to hear about the difficulty you're having with this snake. And honestly, your vet may be correct to consider "PTS" as the humane solution, but let's review what's going on before making any conclusions.

The first thing that jumps into my head is "climate control"- the UK is a far cry from this snake's origin (Africa) so while you say you've followed the guidelines given to set up his tank, are you SURE that his heat is adequate? Specifically, have you independently verified that the temperatures are actually what are shown by a t-stat? I ask because sometimes people assume that if they set a t-stat to a particular temperature that will result in that temperature actually being produced in the tank where the snake needs it- and that's not the case. So how are you measuring the temps. in this snake's home? His behavior suggests he might not have adequate heat, so we need to rule that out as a cause. And bear in mind that we're also not seeing his set-up here. Ball pythons are not the easiest snakes to house- they need more heat than many other popular pet snakes- & they go "off feed" when it's not provided. What size is his tank? How much of the floor is heated with UTH? What are the temperatures in the ROOM where the tank is? (summer AND winter, night AND day if different)

What about "privacy"- BPs are shy snakes by nature & they're ambush feeders, & while some are easier than others to feed, many are quite particular & a challenge to get it right. If they don't have an adequate sense of security (at least 2 hides that are the right size & height- that feel snug w/ only one doorway that's not overly large), they can feel too intimidated to eat. Most appreciate set-ups with plenty of "cover" besides the actual hides- & it often works best to also cover the sides, back & possibly part of the front of the glass for privacy- have you tried that? (Pics would help us understand what you're doing.) Is his home in a quiet location? What is the area of the room/home like (where his tank is)? and do you use a light in or over the tank? How bright is it in the room normally, & also at feeding time? We snake-keepers turn to our veterinarians for medical help with our pets, but they often aren't the best to ask about husbandry issues- either they don't have the time, or they don't personally keep snakes & don't really know first hand.

What time of day do you try to feed him? Have you tried jiggling prey (slightly) using feeding tongs? Do you offer him food when he is cruising the tank, or when he is in his hide? I see you're in the U.K. so I know you probably haven't resorted to any live prey- since you've used the "hair dryer" method, I know you're aware that BPs use their heat sensing pits to go after prey that has lifelike warmth, but do you understand that approaching the snake with the prey is the wrong way to go about it? That intimidates many snakes (like BPs) because it's not natural for rodents to appear to volunteer to be eaten- so if you're offering prey w/ feeding tongs, you never want to approach the snake with it. Instead, wait until night- dim light in the room- & when the snake is IN his hide & hopefully peeking out, keep your own activity at a minimum, but make it appear that the rodent offered on the tongs is cluelessly passing by where the snake is hiding, never going toward the snake, & just out of reach to elicit a slight chase by the snake. Not too much wiggling of the prey- again, too much can scare a shy feeder- keep it subtle. It can be hard at first to get this right as it requires very close observation of what entices your snake versus what will scare him off.

I've never found "braining" dead rodents to help, btw- besides, it's gross. If you want to release more scent, just use the feeding tongs to pinch-damage the rodent's nose right before offering. It's much easier & effective too.

Speaking of ruining a snake's appetite, you did NOT get the advice here to "feed him in another tub"- that's a BAD idea, because handling the snake before feeding totally takes his mind off eating (again, worse for shyer snakes like BPs). Snakes rely on their instincts to catch prey, & the only thing that normally picks them up is a predator that's about to eat THEM. So no handling of this snake for a few days before feeding him- & that begs the question, how much DO you handle this snake?

I agree that it's possible the problem lies with this snake's genetic & resulting physical issues (spider "wobble"). I'm sorry your vet has him pegged at being at the higher (worst) end of the spectrum, & while I've never had a BP with this issue, I have had snakes that had physical issues that did become worse with time (such as a neck kink).

The Reptoboost sounds like a good suggestion, though a product with electrolytes, probiotics & nutrients to provide energy would be most effective inside the snake, rather than just soaking him in it. When a snake or any animal (including humans) get too low on nutrients & fluid, it also depresses their appetite. For a human in the hospital, an IV solution takes care of that, but for a snake we cannot give an IV, so in my experience, a tube-feed is the best solution & often very effective at giving the snake enough energy for their appetite to return. SO, I'm very curious as to why your vet said they would not tube-feed this snake ever again? Did that not go well? The problem with having your vet do a tube-feed is that the snake will likely regurgitate the solution because of the stress, handling & travel to & from their office: tube-feeding is best done at home, & it's something I have experience (& success) doing. Let me know if you want instructions?
I cannot promise that will fix your snake, but you're asking for help to eliminate his suffering & to avoid euthanasia, & that's what I'd try, once any & all husbandry issues have been eliminated as possible causes.

[Alf_uk]

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such a detailed manor. Obviously PTS isn't something that I want but also the welfare of my snake is paramount.

Let cover the items you raised.

Climate Control :

Buzz is housed in a 90 cm (L) X 40 cm (W) x 30 cm (H) glass tank. Facing the tank the warm end is to the left and has 2 heating sources. The first is a heating matt which is secured to the bottom (underside of the the tank) with the probe in-between the tank bottom and the matt. I use an infrared thermometer to set the temperature to 30 degrees, the point of this recording is the bottom of the glass tank where his warm hide is. The second heat source is a heating lamp which is suspended over the warm side (this is in-front rather than over his warm hide). The lamp uses a dimmer thermostat (to avoid blowing the bulb), i use the infrared thermometer to set the temp to 30 degrees. He has a warm hide which is best described as "snug" in-fact its a little too small but this is his preferred hide. There is a hollow log running the length of the tank at the back, which he uses in-frequently but he has been heard moving up and down his log to regulating his temp. He also has a cool hide, which is also "Snug" The temp on the cool side is 23/24 degrees. There is also a water bowl in his tank but i've never seen him being interested in this.

His tank is kept in my office. Generally this is used from 8am-6pm Mon-Fri. Other than than the room is not used and the light is off and buzz is left to his own (nothing to disturb him), I might check on him before securing the house for the night. This is the quietest room in the house.

I generally feed him on an evening when he is most active. I'll place the mouse/rat nr his heat lamb (depending on size) about an hr before feeding. When I enter the room there is a nice strong rodent smell ( strong enough for a human , so buzz will have no problem knowing its feeding time). 9/10 he is out and active at this point, if he isn't active then I leave him alone. I will then normally give the mouse/rat a blast with a hairdryer, as i have discovered that he prefers his food on the hot side. I have tried during the day but he wasn't interested.

When he has fed, his is a very strong feeder. He has previously struck out as soon as the door is open and has detected movement. When he was feeding his food was taken within 30 seconds of it being presented to him. Now he knows its there and will approach the food and get within CMs , but no strike. I will try again ( after heating the mouse / rat again with the hairdryer) , 3 maybe 4 times before you can see he has has enough. At this point I leave the food in the cage overnight. He has never taken food off the floor of his cage, and never taken multiple food items. Its a quick strike , swallow , and back to his warm hide ASAP.

I was worried that it was me that was putting him off so my wife also tried to fed him and nothing. He gets soo close but then nothing. Generally if you wiggle or try to provoke a strike his will move away.
The vet was hoping that tube feeding him would kick start his feeding , but this didn't happen. To avoid any unnecessary stress I haven't been holding him and he didn't take well to being tube fed.

He need to be fed again this weekend , its 2 weeks since I last tried so I'll take you tips into consideration.
Help or even a second set of eyes to spot any stupid mistakes are always appreciated.

Alf

[bcr229]

Bump his hot spot up to 32*C. For those of us in the US, 30*C = 86*F and 24*C =75*F. His ambient is running a tad cooler than it should be.

Maybe try mice if rats aren't doing it for him. Sometimes my picky males on a hunger strike can be restarted if they're offered a mouse after a long hunger strike.

[Bogertophis]

I agree that his home is not quite warm enough- you want 32* C on the warm side. Also, his cool side would be best @ or above 25* C. (@ or above 77* F.). When snakes sense a temperature drop, that's their cue to fast so they don't get stuck with food in their stomach in chilly weather. Snakes require heat to digest their food, so when that happens in nature, the snake can die from food rotting in their gut over winter- so natural selection has created snakes that fast when it gets too cool- those that didn't fast have died out & didn't reproduce. See? Our pets still rely on their instincts, so a chill is a chill- they don't know they can trust us & our thermostats & heat mats- they take no chances & just refuse to eat.

I asked about light in the room & in the tank because these snakes are nocturnal & generally hate lights right over their enclosures, or bright lights in the room. BUT- they do need some ambient light in the room- so is there at least one window in the room that allows normal room daylight? Many snakes are also thought to pay attention to shorter days in fall & winter to help them know when it's time to fast over winter, so do give some thought to what this snake is perceiving as a "photoperiod". Longer days mean summer, shorter days means colder weather. By "heating lamp" did you mean a CHE (with no light output) or a regular, heat + light-producing bulb?

As ambush- predators, most BP owners have more luck feeding their snake when it's peeking out of a hide- and NOT when it's cruising the enclosure. Most BPs are "braver" that way. Something else to think about.

As bcr229 mentioned, snakes can have preferences for the kind of rodent. Domestic rats & mice smell & presumably taste very different. Some snakes don't care, but many do- especially BPs. And keep in mind that in the wild, BPs don't consume either one of these. Their natural diet is mostly ASFs- African Soft-Furred rodents- which are available as frozen but are more expensive, because they're much harder to produce. And be forewarned if you decide to obtain & try these: your snake will probably NOT accept domestic rodents afterwards- they much prefer ASFs, according to most keepers that try them.

I'm glad you're not handling him now- & no snake "enjoys" being tube-fed, but I've also saved a number of snakes by doing so, & it clearly helps in some circumstances. I do think, with your additional information, that you need to work on husbandry issues- not tube-feeding- unless he becomes too weak to have an appetite, & as your vet indicated, that's always the goal when tube-feeding, that it be temporary until a snake feels good enough for their appetite to return.

[Alf_uk]

Again thank you for the top advice . I've left it a few days before replying to see what effect those changed had on his behaviour.

I've upped his warm side to 32 degrees , this has also increased his cool side to almost 25 degrees. To answer the question about light. My office is in a south facing room in my house , plenty of natural light. Upping the temps he moved to his cool side for 2 days before returning to his warm side. I haven't seen him since returning to his warm hide. Normally I would see a head at some point. Even on an evening he is firmly hidden in his hide. (I suspect he is in shed), but i am not going to disturb him to find out.

Interestingly ( nor not) but when he is "Feeding" mode , one slight sniff of food and he is out and about. I've never actually fed him while he is even partially in his hide. Even now , he does come out very quickly when food is around I just don't get that strike.

The ASF are available from my local pet shop (They are just referred to as Multi mice) and I've tried them before (They have a very very distinctive smell). Hopefully he will shed soon , when do you think I should try to fed him again ?

Thank you for all the advice.

Chris

[Bogertophis]

Again thank you for the top advice . I've left it a few days before replying to see what effect those changed had on his behaviour.

I've upped his warm side to 32 degrees , this has also increased his cool side to almost 25 degrees. To answer the question about light. My office is in a south facing room in my house , plenty of natural light. Upping the temps he moved to his cool side for 2 days before returning to his warm side. I haven't seen him since returning to his warm hide. Normally I would see a head at some point. Even on an evening he is firmly hidden in his hide. (I suspect he is in shed), but i am not going to disturb him to find out.

Interestingly ( nor not) but when he is "Feeding" mode , one slight sniff of food and he is out and about. I've never actually fed him while he is even partially in his hide. Even now , he does come out very quickly when food is around I just don't get that strike.

The ASF are available from my local pet shop (They are just referred to as Multi mice) and I've tried them before (They have a very very distinctive smell). Hopefully he will shed soon , when do you think I should try to fed him again ?

Thank you for all the advice.

Chris

Assuming he's in shed (most snakes when in shed do stay on the cool side, btw) I'd wait a day or so after he sheds to offer him a meal. He should be acting a bit hungry then- I sure hope so.

Your BP is unusual for BPs to be active at feeding time, & not hiding. But that's okay- snakes have their own quirks & you know your snake personally, we don't- so follow your experience when offering him food.

Many snakes do learn NOT to strike when always being fed pre-killed, so I wouldn't worry about that. That's why we never want to suddenly feed live to a snake that's accustomed to eating p/k rodents, as they're likely to get hurt* because they won't expect the rodent to fight back. (*unless it's a live but helpless rodent- ie. a mouse or rat pup with eyes still closed will not fight back)

[dakski]

I agree with getting temps correct and then letting him shed before offering. I also advise against ASF. They can fixate on those and only accept those. That's what they eat in the wild. If you cannot insure a ready supply for the life of your BP, I would stick with "normal rats."

I also recommend feeding smaller meals more often with BP's. My BP is about 1.8kg and 11 years old. She eats regularly (when not in winter fast) on small (60-90G) F/T rats. She would skip meals when I offered mediums.

Good luck and keep us posted.