Florida Murders More Animals

[Homebody]

I wonder if Sunrise's proximity to the Everglades explains FWC's extreme measures.

[YungRasputin]

Have read in other forums that this is not the first time that conditional species supposedly grandfathered have been seized from the owner and/or euthanized. This one made the news because the event was caught on video and because an animal not covered by the law was killed.

What it tells me is that if you have "grandfathered" critters in Florida, get them out of the state ASAP for their safety.

the below article details another incident as well as the incident in the OP so is v true what you say

https://reptilesmagazine.com/freedom...holy-thursday/

[YungRasputin]

also i think some context is important to this overall discussion since feral cats, for example, contribute a much greater ecological threat to FL’s ecosystem than snakes since unlike snakes cats will kill things for amusement as well as defense and food (in addition to breeding more prolifically than snakes) - Australia is a textbook example of what they can do and yet we do not see this sort of extreme totalitarian measures to deal with this problem as we do with Reptiles in general and snakes in particular and i think we should, absolutely, be critical about giving credibility to the FWC where it isn’t warranted otherwise we are liable to slip into a sort of self-defeating formalism that leads to stolen civil rights and the extremely tragic loss of life that we are so seeing

[Caitlin]

I spent most of my career working with federal and state bureaucracies in an area of health care that was and is extremely controversial and politically loaded. So what I'm seeing and hearing with FWC is sickeningly familiar.

I certainly hope nobody slips into victim-blaming and implying that the keeper whose snakes were killed is somehow at fault. These bureaucracies, and the convoluted regulations they supposedly enforce, are deliberately confusing to most of us. This gives the organizations an advantage because (a) they have the power in the first place; (b) the regulations and laws are so convoluted, confusing and even contradictory that the institution can pretty much interpret them in whatever way conveys the greatest benefit to that institution, and (c) it makes it very easy for the public to blame those who are victimized (and I use that word deliberately) by a system that really is not there to benefit them in the first place.

And that's what's happening here. This keeper may or may not have followed the regulations perfectly (though from what I am reading so far, he came pretty damned close). NOBODY could have negotiated this rat's nest of a situation perfectly. The keeper is not the problem. The laws and regulations that were put into place, and the FWC leadership that is instructing their staff and enforcing those regulations, is the problem.

The FWC, in and of itself, has been a hugely problematic organization. I'm hoping this incident will bring that to light, as they have done a better job of protecting developers than wildlife.

At any rate, here are some statements from an interview with Chris Coffee, the snakes' keeper, that may help explain things a bit more. But PLEASE know that this situation may never be crystal-clear because FWC doesn't want it to be crystal-clear. I realize I sound cynical, but I have an entire professional lifetime of similar incidents as a foundation.

*****************************************

My name is Chris Coffee, this all started a year ago when the FWC gave me 90 days to liquidate 150 snakes. I sold all but 35 of them so I reached out asking what I should do as my deadline was approaching, but since I wasn’t able to sell them or keep them and my license was about to expire, I needed to know what my options were. They told me to fill out the paperwork on their webiste to have my snakes “grandfathered in”. After filling out the paperwork and submitting it, the FWC sent an investigator who told me he was only doing a regular inspection so that this could happen. After coming in and documenting all of my animals, they arrested me and charged me with the possession of Reticulated and Burmese Pythons, that I possessed legally. The whole thing was a set up… at that time they gave me a property receipt for the 35 animals and I was told that if I moved the animals from the facility, I would be arrested and charged with felonies this time. So for 1 year and 2 months the snakes sat here in my facility. On Thursday, April 6th, Officer Lex contacted me explaining that he had a task to perform for the FWC. I asked what would happen if I didn’t let him in? He explained that I would be arrested. Then I asked what would happen if the snakes had passed away and I froze them in my cooler? He explained that I would be arrested for euthanizing them inhumanely. My hands were tied and I was left with no other choice than to let them enter my facility. Lex told me that he could euthanize the snakes in a way that would be humane and that I wouldn’t get in trouble because all of this would be over that day. I voluntarily signed a property receipt again, for the second time, at which they came in and used a nail gun on 35 of my snakes. I repeatedly told them that there was a Boa Constrictor in one of the cages that was pregnant, this was my partner’s, Bill. Boas are legal in the state of Florida and they reassured me she would not be touched. I could not bare to watch what they were doing to my animals so I decided to leave the room, staying in the facility, but leave my phone in there with them to record the process.

Also, tape of a brief interview with Chris: https://www.tiktok.com/@chriscoffee/video/7220951942535728426

[Malum Argenteum]

I think this article from the Palm Beach Post is a little clearer:
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/...d/70100449007/.

In that linked article, it is stated that FWC technically owned the snakes, which were confiscated as part of a criminal charge, which Coffee is said to have also stated (although elsewhere it states that Coffee owned them). That's a relevant fact in all this.

Captive bolt guns are pretty standard practice for humanely dispatching larger animals including reptiles, as they're effective, efficient and safe for the operator. It isn't crazy to expect that a breeder of retics and burms with a triple digit collection should know the basics of euthanasia guidelines.

But the part of the story where FWC sent four officers over to see if there was a retic unaccounted for is a bit odd. FWC also claimed they hadn't intended to euthanize any snakes, but Coffee said they suggested it, which isn't exactly consistent with FWC's claim (do they go off the plan for the day like that regularly?). But if Coffee agreed to the suggestion, and they weren't legally his snakes anyway (though if that is true, why did FWC ask for his permission? and why in the middle of the retic hunt?), and Coffee stated that he agrees that FWC was legally entitled to euthanize the snakes, there's no immediate legal issue (except for pointless laws, of course).

It is also interesting that the USARK description and the Palm Beach Post story (for which Coffee was apparently interviewed) differ on whether FWC had permission or if "After Coffee allowed them into the facility, the officers began pulling snakes out of their enclosures and killing them". If the Post has that part right, then the USARK piece is substantially misleading.


Copy of that linked article, in case it disappears from that news site:


Officials killed 34 caged pythons, but didn't mean to kill a pet boa constrictor named Big Shirl

Burmese pythons are a damaging invasive species that eat almost anything and have overrun the Everglades. They were added to a list of prohibited species in 2021.

Kimberly MillerPalm Beach Post
















Dozens of caged pythons and one pet boa constrictor named Big Shirl were killed by Florida wildlife officers last week in what some reptile enthusiasts say was an overreach of authority in euthanizing the pythons and a mistake in the death of the boa.
Bill McAdam, whose Broward County warehouse is where the snakes lived, said Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission officers killed 34 Burmese and reticulated pythons on Thursday with a bolt gun that is supposed to deliver immediate and lethal blows to the snakes' heads.
Pythons, a damaging invasive species that eat almost anything and have overrun the Everglades, were added to a list of prohibited species by FWC commissioners in February 2021. Commercial breeders were given about five months to get rid of their animals. Boa constrictors such as Big Shirl, who McAdam owned for more than a decade, are not on the list of prohibited species.
FWC issued a statement on Tuesday about the hours-long euthanasia incident, but didn't go into detail about what happened and didn't mention the boa constrictor.
However, Chris Coffee, who owned the pythons that were euthanized, told a tangled version of events late Tuesday afternoon that began with FWC officers issuing him citations in February 2022 and ended Thursday with snake blood and feces on the warehouse floor.
"I don't like that they shot them in the head," said Coffee, who witnessed the first death before leaving the room.
Video captures shock, anger in apparent wrongful death of a boa

What seems clear is the death of the boa, not among the species in dispute, was a tragic error.
In a video posted to YouTube by the Florida division of the United States Association of Reptile Keepers, an officer puts his hands to his head in apparent disbelief and another officer's jaw drops open when they realize they had just killed the boa, which was pregnant.
“Oh my God! Why?” Coffee can be heard yelling in the background of the video when officers say the “boa is dead.”
“It was a mistake,” someone says.
“How? I reminded you 10 times!” Coffee exclaims.
An autopsy on Big Shirl found she was pregnant with 32 babies, according to a spokesman for the reptile keepers group. McAdam estimates the babies were worth about $3,500 each.
“I raised that boa since it was a baby,” McAdam said. “I went ballistic when I found out. I told them, 'You guys are going to pay for this.'”

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FWC said in a statement that it went to the Broward warehouse because there had been a report of a reticulated python in the area. Reticulated pythons are also invasive species prohibited in Florida because of the damage they do to native wildlife.
The statement said the FWC did not have any intention of killing the snakes in the Broward warehouse, which is rented by Coffee and McAdam. FWC also said that the snakes were relinquished to them on Thursday and officers were asked to euthanize the snakes by the owner at that time and at the warehouse.
"The FWC Division of Law Enforcement is determining the full details of this incident and more information will be released when it is verified and appropriate to do so," the statement said.
But Coffee, a commercial breeder, said that although he has been caring for the pythons, FWC technically confiscated them in February 2022 when he was charged with having a prohibited species without a permit. The 34 pythons in his warehouse were ones that remained after he had found homes for about 120 other pythons following the 2021 rule change.
Coffee said he "begged" FWC for a deadline extension to find homes for the remaining 34, but that he was told the deadline to get rid of them was passed, the snakes could no longer be sold and he had to care for them while his citations went through the courts.
Broward County court records show the case was dismissed Feb. 6 after Coffee was accepted into a misdemeanor diversion program and paid $250 to buy out community service hours.
On Thursday, Coffee said he was called by FWC officers about the reticulated python sighting. He said he was wary of letting the officers into the warehouse because he thought he may get charged again for having the pythons even though he said they had been FWC property since they were confiscated more than a year ago. He felt like he was stuck in a Catch-22.
"They said we can euthanize the snakes for you and it will all be over today and we'll never harass you again," Coffee said he was told by the FWC officers on the phone after they asked to go into the warehouse. "I didn't know it meant brutally shooting them in the head. Once I saw them kill the first snake, I told them to stop, that I couldn't do this."
Pythons can be captured and humanely killed by members of the public, so Coffee said he realizes the officers were within their right to kill the pythons, but not the boa constrictor.
"I reiterated 10 times, please don't touch the boa constrictor," he said.
Curt Harbsmeier, an attorney and legal advisor to the reptile group, said he wants to know about the timing — why the state agency moved to euthanize the snakes last week after the snakes had been in the warehouse for more than a year with the FWC's knowledge.



Why euthanize the pythons now?

“Why did they have to go in there now?" said Harbsmeier. "They call it euthanize, I call it a slaughter. There was blood all over.”
Under the 2021 rule change, invasive tegus and green iguanas were grandfathered in as pets and could be kept for their lifetime by owners who had to follow upgraded requirements for enclosures. But it’s not clear in FWC rules online if the newly-prohibited snakes could also be kept as pets by their current owners.
“For reptile keepers, these animals are just like dogs or cats to many people,” said Daniel Parker, director of media for the United States Association of Reptile Keepers, Florida. "We love them and cherish them. They are not just disposable.”

Several animal rights groups supported the 2021 rule change, which also prohibited green anacondas and Nile monitors, because of the damage these reptiles do to native wildlife in Florida.
Elise Bennett, Florida director of the Center for Biological Diversity, didn’t know anything about the Thursday python killing, but said her group supported the rule change to control the invasive species spread and keep them from inhumane conditions.
“Most of these exotic, invasive species are here by no fault of their own,” Bennett said. “It’s heartbreaking and unfortunate when they have to pay the price for humans’ thoughtless actions.”

[Snagrio]

I spent most of my career working with federal and state bureaucracies in an area of health care that was and is extremely controversial and politically loaded. So what I'm seeing and hearing with FWC is sickeningly familiar.

I certainly hope nobody slips into victim-blaming and implying that the keeper whose snakes were killed is somehow at fault. These bureaucracies, and the convoluted regulations they supposedly enforce, are deliberately confusing to most of us. This gives the organizations an advantage because (a) they have the power in the first place; (b) the regulations and laws are so convoluted, confusing and even contradictory that the institution can pretty much interpret them in whatever way conveys the greatest benefit to that institution, and (c) it makes it very easy for the public to blame those who are victimized (and I use that word deliberately) by a system that really is not there to benefit them in the first place.

And that's what's happening here. This keeper may or may not have followed the regulations perfectly (though from what I am reading so far, he came pretty damned close). NOBODY could have negotiated this rat's nest of a situation perfectly. The keeper is not the problem. The laws and regulations that were put into place, and the FWC leadership that is instructing their staff and enforcing those regulations, is the problem.

The FWC, in and of itself, has been a hugely problematic organization. I'm hoping this incident will bring that to light, as they have done a better job of protecting developers than wildlife.

At any rate, here are some statements from an interview with Chris Coffee, the snakes' keeper, that may help explain things a bit more. But PLEASE know that this situation may never be crystal-clear because FWC doesn't want it to be crystal-clear. I realize I sound cynical, but I have an entire professional lifetime of similar incidents as a foundation.

*****************************************

My name is Chris Coffee, this all started a year ago when the FWC gave me 90 days to liquidate 150 snakes. I sold all but 35 of them so I reached out asking what I should do as my deadline was approaching, but since I wasn’t able to sell them or keep them and my license was about to expire, I needed to know what my options were. They told me to fill out the paperwork on their webiste to have my snakes “grandfathered in”. After filling out the paperwork and submitting it, the FWC sent an investigator who told me he was only doing a regular inspection so that this could happen. After coming in and documenting all of my animals, they arrested me and charged me with the possession of Reticulated and Burmese Pythons, that I possessed legally. The whole thing was a set up… at that time they gave me a property receipt for the 35 animals and I was told that if I moved the animals from the facility, I would be arrested and charged with felonies this time. So for 1 year and 2 months the snakes sat here in my facility. On Thursday, April 6th, Officer Lex contacted me explaining that he had a task to perform for the FWC. I asked what would happen if I didn’t let him in? He explained that I would be arrested. Then I asked what would happen if the snakes had passed away and I froze them in my cooler? He explained that I would be arrested for euthanizing them inhumanely. My hands were tied and I was left with no other choice than to let them enter my facility. Lex told me that he could euthanize the snakes in a way that would be humane and that I wouldn’t get in trouble because all of this would be over that day. I voluntarily signed a property receipt again, for the second time, at which they came in and used a nail gun on 35 of my snakes. I repeatedly told them that there was a Boa Constrictor in one of the cages that was pregnant, this was my partner’s, Bill. Boas are legal in the state of Florida and they reassured me she would not be touched. I could not bare to watch what they were doing to my animals so I decided to leave the room, staying in the facility, but leave my phone in there with them to record the process.

Also, tape of a brief interview with Chris: https://www.tiktok.com/@chriscoffee/video/7220951942535728426

Mentioned this a while ago, but this entire fiasco only seems to have proved my point. This is exactly why I will never "register" any of my animals if I can help it, because it seems to me all you're really doing is putting a target on your back for when these megalomaniacs suddenly change their minds on a whim and decide the creatures in your care need to be executed. And from what other people are saying this case is far from an isolated incident of officials just waltzing into someone's home and slaughtering cherished pets, this is but only a better documented one.

I don't think I'd ever need to do such things anyway since none of the species I have are generally "problematic" and I don't ever intend to move anywhere where they would be (i.e. pretty much any of the southeastern states) but all the same, these awful people are only getting more and more bold and brazen...

[Nick_MD]

Thanks for posting the interview. The sequence of events makes more sense now. I suspect he'll have a legal case for the boa, but not much else.

Despite assurances from the Florida legislators, there is effectively no grandfathering with these laws. The active link to register for grandfathering on the FWC website is basically an entrapment scheme to document your prohibited species for future termination. Another reason I'm glad I don't live in Florida, but it could happen anywhere laws like this are passed.

[YungRasputin]

Thanks for posting the interview. The sequence of events makes more sense now. I suspect he'll have a legal case for the boa, but not much else.

Despite assurances from the Florida legislators, there is effectively no grandfathering with these laws. The active link to register for grandfathering on the FWC website is basically an entrapment scheme to document your prohibited species for future termination. Another reason I'm glad I don't live in Florida, but it could happen anywhere laws like this are passed.

i was thinking about this earlier and was wondering if keepers in other states could start to use this as legal precedents to sight in our own battles against anti-snake legislation because i don’t think this phenomena is something restricted to FL alone and even if it were i think it’s enough for keepers everywhere to call into question the legitimacy of these state agencies and the legitimacy of their promises

i also think FL keepers should explore the idea of suing the FL govt for fraud or something to this effect because v clear promises were made by the FWC that they’ve obviously went back on - i would argue that even with respect to the retics/prohibited species the FWC legally created an impossible environment for keepers to navigate and made it impossible for anyone to follow the law and do right by them really

[bcr229]

FWC statement: https://myfwc.com/news/all-news/snake-423/

[YungRasputin]

FWC statement: https://myfwc.com/news/all-news/snake-423/

good to post this of course but imo it seems v sus that they’re putting forward a narrative which is directly counter to the press and also, to the video record - it’s like, why would he feel the need to record the officers doing something which they claim he asked them to do and what substantiating evidences exist to back up the claim of an “escaped retic” - just all v sus imo

i mean, in this day and age of influencers and going viral seems hard to believe that local community members would miss the opportunity to take pictures or video of a large retic roaming around