Will my python ever recover?

[leosantare]

Some more of her enclosure..

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[Bogertophis]

As previously suggested, she needs things with traction and to climb on to improve her body condition- as it is, she's got nothing. You did say you're making something but she's been without for 11 years, I assume, so what do you expect?

As hides go, those are awfully tall & not a bit "cozy" or safe-feeling as most snakes seem to enjoy- though I can't speak for this species on that.

She needs some real environmental "enrichment"- some things to work her muscles on. When I had a large boa, I used indoor-outdoor carpet as substrate- it's easily washed, & offers great traction. And on top of her hide, I used a carpet mat with rubberized non-slip backing so she could comfortably climb on & off for basking- again, snakes need traction to work their muscles against- smooth surfaces don't do a thing.

Have you ever seen someone put a snake on a glass top table? The snake can hardly move as it's so slick. Snakes push off surfaces somewhat like ice skaters do with their blade edges, only they're using their muscles & belly scutes. (& yes, I used to ice skate) As it is, her home looks more like an office cubicle...not anything a snake would be comfortable in. I half-expect to see a typewriter & a telephone in there. There's a lot of air space- but snakes don't fly- they need things to hold onto, things to climb on & explore.

Snakes can feel very stressed from such an open (& very illuminated) environment, or from repeated vet visits, without ever showing visible or measurable signs- but they just may not do well. Stress impacts their immune system. Snakes are stoic creatures- it's up to us to understand & provide for their needs if you expect them to have good health & longevity, as opposed to just existing.

[jmcrook]

So 10+ vet visits hasn’t given you the specific answer you seem to have in mind… Have you spoken at any length with experienced boeleni keepers? I think you’ll be surprised at what they may tell you. Ari Flagle, Mark Miles, and Keith McPeek would be an excellent starting point.

[bcr229]

As previously suggested, she needs things with traction and to climb on to improve her body condition- as it is, she's got nothing.

This, and it's a common problem for snakes kept only on paper or other smooth, level surfaces. Your python, like retics and carpet pythons, is actually semi-arboreal in the wild. They're active, they perch, they climb, and they're good at it.

Decor doesn't have to be expensive. I have a small PVC jungle gym in my carpet python enclosure. I can disassemble it for cleaning/disinfecting and he likes to perch on it. Yes PVC is smooth but he has to grab it firmly to perch and balance on it, which helps keep his muscles exercised.

I don't think increasing the enclosure temperatures is a good idea. Higher temperatures = faster metabolism in snakes, which means yours would be using more calories even while resting and that's not what you want.

Chicks are good for a varied diet but remember their bones are very thin, just like other birds, so the snake will digest them fast. A feeder like a rabbit has thicker bones than a chick, and those bones take longer to break down which means the snake gets nourishment over a longer period of time.

A 300 gram feeder for a 7.3 kg snake is only 4% of the snake's body weight, and for a 9 kg snake it's only 3% of the snake's body weight. You said you saw a lump with the chick but again, chicks are not a "compact" feeder like an older rat or young rabbit would be.

[Caitlin]

I am familiar with RAL. What viral tests are you looking into? What laboratory processed any previous viral tests?

I do have to say I have very mixed feelings about viral testing with commercial labs these days as results are not super reliable. There are a couple of university-based labs I would trust.

Perhaps more importantly - keepers panic if their python tests positive for Nidovirus, for example, and assume that it's a death sentence. But the reality is that it's starting to look like many snakes may carry the virus for years, and perhaps throughout their lives, without ever becoming ill at all. An asymptomatic positive snake may live a perfectly normal life.

Your snake has not been showing any of the symptoms of illness associated with either Nidovirus or IBD (arenavirus) and has not been exposed to other snakes that could have transmitted. So I'm not sure that a viral test will really tell you anything, regardless of what the results turned out to be. If she has somehow been positive since she was a baby then she's also been asymptomatic, so the focus wouldn't be on the fact that she's positive - it would be on providing her with the best possible quality of life to ensure that the virus never becomes an issue.

Her body condition looks very good, including the overall iridescence of her scales. I don't keep the large pythons but a 350g meal for a snake her size isn't enough. I just suspect that this is a combination of the snake needing a bump up in food plus providing more exercise and enrichment. Depression and lethargy in captive snakes is a real thing.

She's in a very bare enclosure that lacks environmental complexity and enrichment. It's great that you let her out, but she is a large, intelligent, semi-arboreal snake. These snakes are smart and athletic and she needs more - if her enclosure has been like that throughout her life, then it may take some time for her to fully respond to and engage with a more enriched environment.

[Ruby]

As previously suggested, she needs things with traction and to climb on to improve her body condition- as it is, she's got nothing. You did say you're making something but she's been without for 11 years, I assume, so what do you expect?

As hides go, those are awfully tall & not a bit "cozy" or safe-feeling as most snakes seem to enjoy- though I can't speak for this species on that.

She needs some real environmental "enrichment"- some things to work her muscles on. When I had a large boa, I used indoor-outdoor carpet as substrate- it's easily washed, & offers great traction. And on top of her hide, I used a carpet mat with rubberized non-slip backing so she could comfortably climb on & off for basking- again, snakes need traction to work their muscles against- smooth surfaces don't do a thing.

Have you ever seen someone put a snake on a glass top table? The snake can hardly move as it's so slick. Snakes push off surfaces somewhat like ice skaters do with their blade edges, only they're using their muscles & belly scutes. (& yes, I used to ice skate) As it is, her home looks more like an office cubicle...not anything a snake would be comfortable in. I half-expect to see a typewriter & a telephone in there. There's a lot of air space- but snakes don't fly- they need things to hold onto, things to climb on & explore.

Snakes can feel very stressed from such an open (& very illuminated) environment, or from repeated vet visits, without ever showing visible or measurable signs- but they just may not do well. Stress impacts their immune system. Snakes are stoic creatures- it's up to us to understand & provide for their needs if you expect them to have good health & longevity, as opposed to just existing.

I agree, She looks like a very healthy snake. All she needs is better husbandry.
Its a shame shes been in such a bare enclosure for 11 years.

[Ruby]

I know my enclosure is pretty bare, but she has the necessities. I'm making a PVC jungle gym to put in place of the blue tub/hide box.

Thank you for all the help. If there is anything I can do to help her gain weight and become more active, please let me know.

Doing the bare minimum is keeping her alive, But surviving is different from thriving. She needs more enrichment, That will help her become more active.
Shes bored.
A PVC jungle gym will help, But its still not enough. You don't need to go all out with her enclosure, Just add some foliage, Snug hides, Rocks or something rough, Half logs, etc.
Different textures in her enclosure would be great, Not everything should be smooth.

[Caitlin]

I haven't kept snakes that large in years, but I just wanted to add that I agree with the observations by bcr229. At her size and weight I think I'd be feeding her something like a small rabbit (about 1 lb.). Between that and some good exercise to get her muscle tone improved I think you'd see some weight gain, less lethargy and improved body condition.

For immediate enrichment I'd throw a sturdy step ladder into that enclosure and a couple of big cardboard boxes for her to explore. In the longer term I'd want to get a couple of big ledges in there for her just to start.

[Caitlin]

God I hate that I can't edit after ten minutes because now I feel like I am spamming. I feel like it's important to add that I don't want in any way to come off like I am being critical of you for her enclosure or need for enrichment.

The standards you have been using for her and the quality of her enclosure are outstanding within the traditional parameters of the hobby. Our understanding of snake cognitive abilities, capacity for learning, and the fact that captive management with insufficient mental stimulation has negative effects in the long term is a relatively recent area of knowledge. It's very well documented in the research, but the fact that it's important to provide an environmentally complex enclosure along with enrichment activities both in and out of the enclosure is unfortunately not yet the norm amongst keepers.

The fact that you may not have been aware that what you're seeing in your snake seems to be less about medical issues and more about environmental/husbandry issues isn't something I think you can be criticized about as our understanding of all this is still new and it's definitely not generally understood in the hobby.

In the meantime, enrichment does not have to be complicated or expensive. I often joke that my enclosures look more like a recycling center than a beautiful 'slice of nature'. I always admire the folks who have pretty enclosures but I place a premium on enrichment, so my enclosures are filled with things like cardboard boxes, baskets, stacked towels, crumpled up packing paper, shelves, stools and ladders they can climb, containers with different types of substrate that they can check out, and other weird stuff that I can easily swap in and out so that the snakes almost always have new stuff to explore and investigate.

Snakes who have not been kept in enriched environments tend to slow down mentally over time, so it can take them awhile to adjust to, and engage with, new activities and objects to explore. It's worth being patient with them and letting them proceed at their own pace.

Your snake has received really excellent care with you. That shows in her beautiful body condition and iridescence. You've gone above and beyond in meeting her basic needs. I'm just trying to support you in considering her needs for mental and physical challenges and stimulation. Thank goodness the hobby is starting to embrace this but we have a ways to go yet.

[Ruby]

In the meantime, enrichment does not have to be complicated or expensive. I often joke that my enclosures look more like a recycling center than a beautiful 'slice of nature'. I always admire the folks who have pretty enclosures but I place a premium on enrichment, so my enclosures are filled with things like cardboard boxes, baskets, stacked towels, crumpled up packing paper, shelves, stools and ladders they can climb, containers with different types of substrate that they can check out, and other weird stuff that I can easily swap in and out so that the snakes almost always have new stuff to explore and investigate.

I absolutely agree. Especially with larger snakes in large enclosures, It can get quite expensive to do a more natural set up.
Besides aesthetics, Cardboard boxes, baskets, etc., work wonderful!