Injecting Thawed Rat

[D-.No]

I have heard this discussed mainly due to hydration issues.
A pre killled rat does lose some water weight but was wondering if this might be a good time to add any additional Vitamins/supplements?

Hoping to have Roxanne for a very long time and if I can give her a little green treatment supplements to her feeders may be a good time to start now.

Has anyone tried a nutrient rich veggie mix into their rats for a long-term health for affects?

[Bogertophis]

The best way to add nutrients to rodents is to feed them well when they're alive. That's what I do- mine get kale occasionally, or bits of carrot, tomato, broccoli, seeds/nuts- in addition to their balanced pellet feed. (I eat kale+ too- that's why I'm so feisty! )

IF you're buying commercially raised rodents, I can all but guarantee they're not fed that well- you'll be lucky if they're eating actual rodent chow & not cheap dog food.

The nutrients needed by our snakes are NOT the same as what rodents need- rodents need balanced nutrition, more like us. Snakes evolved getting all they need from the diet of wild prey, that ate a balance of natural foods while alive. So don't over-do it, adding supplements can throw some nutrients out of balance, be toxic or just be a waste.

If you inject water into a thawed rat, it's mostly going to leak back out when the snake constricts it- better to just thaw directly IN water so it's fur is damp when offered- as long as your snake doesn't mind that some scent is washed off in the water.

If you feel you must add a bit of supplement, you can pry open the teeth & install the powder in the rodent's oral cavity. (Then push the mouth closed, otherwise the teeth can injure the snake.)
Injecting vitamins is the hardest way to do it- if they're not liquid vitamins to start with, they don't dissolve well & will clog the needle- ask me how I know.

[Malum Argenteum]

The need to supplement the diet of rodent feeders is not supported by empirical evidence. Whole rodent prey has an ideal calcium/phosphorus ratio; adding calcium would not be detrimental. Rodent prey has sufficient Vitamin D; adding more would not be beneficial. Rodent prey is very high (considered to be borderline toxic in some samples) in Vitamin A; adding more is completely contraindicated.

It seems unlikely that forcing a strict carnivore to consume vegetable matter would be beneficial, but I don't know of any data one way or the other on this. According to legitimate sources (Maders Reptile Medicine) supplementing the diet of rodent feeders isn't needed or recommended.

As for snake longevity, refraining from overfeeding certainly plays a role, and providing ideal environmental conditions (temps, moisture levels, sufficient space and behavioral stimulation) without trying novel "improvements" has yielded very long lived animals.

[Malum Argenteum]

I just bumped into published research (abstract only at this link; I didn't find a public full text) relevant to the topic of supplementing snake diets. The comparison to wild prey is especially interesting.

Thomas, J., Glatt, B. and Dierenfeld, E.S. (2004), Proximate, vitamins A and E, and mineral composition of free-ranging cotton mice (Peromyscus gossypinus) from St. Catherines Island, Georgia. Zoo Biol., 23: 253-261. https://doi.org/10.1002/zoo.20007

"Although rodents are an integral part of numerous carnivore diets, there is little published information regarding nutrient composition in free-ranging mice for comparison with laboratory-reared prey. Cotton mice (Peromyscus gossypinus, n=6) were captured on St. Catherines Island, Georgia, and analyzed for water, ash, protein, and fat content (proximate constituents), as well as minerals and the fat-soluble vitamins A and E. The overall body composition (mean±SD: 65.8%±1.9% water, 10.9%±2.2% ash, 56.4%±4.1% protein, and 27.2%±3.9% fat) was similar to published values for adult laboratory mice (Mus domesticus). The macro- (Ca, K, Mg, Na, and P) and trace (Cu, Fe, Mn, and Zn) mineral levels were also similar to previously reported values for laboratory mice, and in general met or exceeded the established nutrient requirements for domestic carnivores. Vitamin E ranged from 77 to 170 IU/kg dry matter (DM) in these mice–again, similar to values previously quantified in laboratory mice. However, the vitamin A concentrations (21,947±6,893 IU/kg DM) in the free-ranging mice were consistently and substantially lower than values reported for whole laboratory mice. To our knowledge, this is the first quantification of vitamin A in free-ranging mice used as prey by carnivores. While other nutrients measured were similar between captive-reared and free-ranging mice, the current data suggest the need for further investigation of vitamin A nutrition in the development of optimal diets for carnivores in captivity."

[D-.No]

Thanks everybody. I guess my big concern was making sure my BP is getting the best diet For her overall well being and longevityl. I’ve been purchasing my rats from a local reptile shop, they look quality but I’m assuming they haven’t been getting the quality feed as I personally would use to plump them up.
Does anyone know of a top-tier frozen rat supplier that guarantees top tier diet and care?
If you guys think I’m over thinking this and my snake is fine as long as it’s eating on the reg

[nikkubus]

According to legitimate sources (Maders Reptile Medicine) supplementing the diet of rodent feeders isn't needed or recommended.

Here's the thing, when you put vitamins in a rodent's mouth cavity, they are going to have different bioavailability than when they are consumed through plants by the rodent, and then accessed by the reptile through fat and muscle tissue. I have little trust in a lot of studies that are done because of issues of poor controls or outright manipulation of data. We know for a fact that in order for the reptile to get whatever vitamins and minerals, they must be present in the tissues of the prey item or obtained from supplements or drinking water- they cannot appear from thin air. We know for a fact that bioavailability varies between raw vitamins (and within vitamins, variation between specific types), plants, and meats based on the type of digestive systems of the species. It logically follows that a carnivorous rodent eating reptile would benefit from eating a rodent who benefits from eating actual plant matter with better bioavailability than cheap dog food. We don't need to listen to a study done by people for the purpose of proving it's fine to cheap out and provide minimal care.

A snake eating "whole foods" rodents eating "whole foods" plant matter and insects is what is natural, and the bioavailability is going to be strong through the entire food chain. Once you start attempting to replace whole foods anywhere in here with some combo of vitamins, you increase the chance that they are not actually being absorbed by the snake.

[Bogertophis]

...Does anyone know of a top-tier frozen rat supplier that guarantees top tier diet and care? ...

Various members have their own favorites, & proximity helps too, as it's best to avoid cross country shipments in the heat of summer.

I can't find the list I made, but this thread discusses them. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-purchase-help

I raise my own rodents, & always have, but if I were to buy them, I'd probably go with Perfect Prey, or check with Layne Labs- both have excellent reviews.