The Ethics of the Scaleless Morph

[Armiyana]

From what I have read online, and things I have sort of pieced together myself...
Scaleless in ball pythons is definitely not worth the trouble. If one is bred then yes, it should only be sold to someone understanding the issues at hand:

1: unlike scaleless corns/rats, ball pythons don't seem to have belly scales. This means even just locomotion is difficult for them.

2: heat pits can be undeveloped. This means more problematic feeders because they can't properly sense where the enticing food is.

3: lots of issues with the skin such as easy injury and shedding issues. I almost wonder if they develop that papery easy to tear open skin you see in extremely malnourished snakes and if so that is a major concern for large open wounds and bacterial infections.... The chance for bacterial and fungal infection is also increased by lack of protection the scales provide

4: something I noticed in an egg cutting video.... I think Scaleless may even mean NO EGG TOOTH. Without that special scale, they won't even be able to pip on their own. Leading to egg death unless properly 'cut' in the egg. In the video, the breeder had to cut the membrane around the snake as well as the egg while the other eggs had already pipped.

It's going to be debated for a while, but it looks like the demand will hopefully keep dropping. The community in general so far is seeing something unique and different, but breeders are starting to see the issues with them and steer away from breeding scales heads to get the scaleless.

Another thing we discussed here before is the fact that there are very little photos or evidence of adult scaleless. It feels a lot more than just, "he won't photograph well" because of some everyday issue these makes have with delicate skin.
I think even Brian B said that scaleless was a big challenge and he wasn't planning on producing another past one clutch this year? He wanted to try again and see if he could get the care and quality of life to be improved I think?


It's definitely more problematic than the potential issues that any other gene has except perhaps Desert. Not desert ghost, just desert. That particular gene has a flaw in the females that leads to complications and eggbinding and from what I hear this was a majority of the time.

At least some spiders, woman, champagnes and so on have very little to almost no visual wobble..
Chances for kinking in cinny and blk pastel supers or caramel albinos isn't guaranteed and sometimes few and far between
...
But scaleless is something that will absolutely result in a scaleless head to scaleless head breeding and something that needs to be considered more critically.

[Bogertophis]

My take on the issue comes down to general biology. Snakes have scales as a physiological defense against dehydration, predators, and the general environment. To take away something that is essentially "necessary for normal life function" is wrong....

No apology needed for your "long answer"- But just to start with the part above- that's mainly why I don't like or agree with breeding scaleless reptiles- their scales are like our fingernails & hair, or like the fur that other types of animals have- it protects the body of the owner from damage (abrasions, punctures, etc) & from unfavorable temperatures as well as dehydration. Scales also figure into a snake's ability to have traction & mobility. So I'm in the same camp that feels breeding for "scaleless" is wrong- it's a deliberate impairment, & for what? Are scales a problem for ANYONE? No. Are they somehow unsightly? No. Clearly, there is NO good reason for any reptile to be without scales, & every reason they should possess them, as evolution aptly demonstrated. Does anyone breed featherless birds? I HOPE not! Same thing.

I've never liked dog breeds that stray too far from natural-looking canines, including but not limited to the brachycephalic breeds, though I was never aware quite how badly their breathing is impacted- that's horrible. I agree that's a much bigger detrimental issue than just coat colors or length of fur- to me, breeding selectively for issues that impact how animals essentially function IS very wrong. Maybe more education would help keep people from buying such animals? I have to say that just because you "can" make something, doesn't mean that you "should". Freaks for the sake of having freaks is not an acceptable reason, IMO. And to me, their deliberate existence is sad.

[Crowfingers]

No apology needed for your "long answer"- But just to start with the part above- that's mainly why I don't like or agree with breeding scaleless reptiles- their scales are like our fingernails & hair, or like the fur that other types of animals have- it protects the body of the owner from damage (abrasions, punctures, etc) & from unfavorable temperatures as well as dehydration. Scales also figure into a snake's ability to have traction & mobility. So I'm in the same camp that feels breeding for "scaleless" is wrong- it's a deliberate impairment, & for what? Are scales a problem for ANYONE? No. Are they somehow unsightly? No. Clearly, there is NO good reason for any reptile to be without scales, & every reason they should possess them, as evolution aptly demonstrated. Does anyone breed featherless birds? I HOPE not! Same thing.

I've never liked dog breeds that stray too far from natural-looking canines, including but not limited to the brachycephalic breeds, though I was never aware quite how badly their breathing is impacted- that's horrible. I agree that's a much bigger detrimental issue than just coat colors or length of fur- to me, breeding selectively for issues that impact how animals essentially function IS very wrong. Maybe more education would help keep people from buying such animals? I have to say that just because you "can" make something, doesn't mean that you "should". Freaks for the sake of having freaks is not an acceptable reason, IMO. And to me, their deliberate existence is sad.

well said!

[Crowfingers]

[QUOTE=Armiyana;2775817]From what I have read online, and things I have sort of pieced together myself...
Scaleless in ball pythons is definitely not worth the trouble. If one is bred then yes, it should only be sold to someone understanding the issues at hand:

1: unlike scaleless corns/rats, ball pythons don't seem to have belly scales. This means even just locomotion is difficult for them.

2: heat pits can be undeveloped. This means more problematic feeders because they can't properly sense where the enticing food is.

3: lots of issues with the skin such as easy injury and shedding issues. I almost wonder if they develop that papery easy to tear open skin you see in extremely malnourished snakes and if so that is a major concern for large open wounds and bacterial infections.... The chance for bacterial and fungal infection is also increased by lack of protection the scales provide

4: something I noticed in an egg cutting video.... I think Scaleless may even mean NO EGG TOOTH. Without that special scale, they won't even be able to pip on their own. Leading to egg death unless properly 'cut' in the egg. In the video, the breeder had to cut the membrane around the snake as well as the egg while the other eggs had already pipped]...

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I didn't even consider the no egg tooth problem! That would be an issue.

[Bogertophis]

Yes, the lack of egg teeth directly impacts survival!

[Snagrio]

Yet another parallel to "smush faced dogs." Many of them, due to how malformed the heads of the puppies are, can't give birth properly on their own and need a mandatory C-section to deliver the pups. Left to their own devices, all of those horrid breeds would die off after a single generation.

[Malum Argenteum]

Cornish Rock chickens (a breed cross used for virtually all chicken meat in the US) are much more troubling than any problematic reptile morphs.

I'll take this back. Sounds like scaleless is about equally bad.

I'm not a BP person, so I did a general web search for the morph. The most interesting thing to me is that the first hit was a "care sheet" that, among apparent content misinformation, recommends scaleless BPs as a beginner snake. This suggests that taking some of these problematic morphs out of the reach of unqualified keepers might be a reasonable step.

I notice that the big reptile classifieds site (which has a very high proportion of novice and casual buyers, at least in my recent time as a seller) prohibits listing Lemon Frost leos; perhaps they could be encouraged to think about prohibiting listings for scaleless -- not to prohibit anyone from keeping the morph, but to discourage sales to the wrong sorts of keepers (novice) under the wrong sorts of circumstances (easy online sales -- browse listings, send money, get snake).

[Animallover3541]

It bothers me how in dog breeds the types of traits people strive to achieve are the same traits that would make other animals either unbreedable or make them a cull. I'm hoping to breed English angoras at some point and I've never seen a rabbit breed which posses extreme brachycephalic qualities like pugs do or some Arabian horses do (I know this is a highly debated topic among horse breeders though). I just don't understand breeding an animal with such severe health issues. I've also wondered about some fancy goldfish and if their body shape limits their quality of life and and health. It's just such a complicated topic to understand.

I have to imagine though that ball pythons just possessing small scaleless patches on their heads don't experience the same issues as those who are fully or entirely scaleless though.

[Bogertophis]

...I have to imagine though that ball pythons just possessing small scaleless patches on their heads don't experience the same issues as those who are fully or entirely scaleless though.

I would agree with you, but I think that to encourage any gene that impacts the health & survival of the animal is just obviously the wrong direction to go. Which is why these animals evolved with scales in the first place, eh? A bad trait is a bad trait, no matter the amount, & what's more important to protect than a creatures head, anyway? Can't survive with brain damage, or eye damage, or problems eating...if anything needs scales, a snake's head does.

Again- if having no scales on their head was somehow an advantage, snakes would have evolved that way- like the way turkey vultures evolved without feathers on their heads, so that they stay cleaner when scavenging carrion. But that has no possible advantage for snakes whatsoever. In fact, when they grab their prey, & the prey fights back with either teeth or claws, what's going to happen to the snake's unprotected head? Keeping a bad trait, no matter how minimal, is never good for the animals, which is why natural selection weeds them out.

[Armiyana]

The downside to the scaleless ball python issue I think is that while detrimental to the animal's health, it hasn't been proven to be a fatal issue like the tumors in lemon frosts.

There are still listings for Desert BPs on MM, even though that has proven to cause fertility issues and eggbinding.
Leatherback beardies are also still there and very popular.... The super form is problematic. From what I understand most breeders try not to breed for it because the dragons will tear each other apart during breeding because of the thin skin. Along with being more prone to dehydration. I have seen one once that came through a big box as a leatherback, and he did have some scratches and roughed up skin even as a baby. Needed a lot of soaks for his skin.

And everyone thinks Manx cats are super cute.... manx to manx is a fatal gene and leads to stillborns like breeding spider or champagne BPs
Scottish folds? If you breed them together your cat can have bone and cartilage disorders that can't be cured.

I think in the end it's just being open to the issues on a public forum like this that helps most. I don't think there's enough public knowledge and keeping for people to really know how difficult the scaleless BP is to keep. That is most likely why it will continue to be listed. As far as I've seen (though honestly I haven't looked too far down the rabbithole) Kinova had a pretty sweet looking adult scaleless. I think NERD had some good looking juvies and brought up the dehydration and shedding issues, particularly the constant shed cycles that can be hard to break. I think a lot of the more catious breeders are still waiting to see pics of a scaleless females on eggs. But again, a lot of this was older info and nothing really current. The most current that I know.... BHB just hatched a scaleless last month and they said this was their last breeding attempt for scaleless. They're a lot of work and they want to "See if they could keep this one alive" Which sounds like what I needed to hear to deter me from the project for a long time.