Nakoa Update 2

[Nakoa]

Hi I know its been a while since iv posted an update on Nakoa, he's at 762 Grams now but its been a rocky road the past few months with him, we thought at one point he had IBD but that turned out clear after lots of tests and time but that was a very worrying time with having other snakes in the house some that will be moving onto forever homes eventually as well,
But what is worrying us right now is his weight gain has come to a stand still he hasn't gained in a while and is still very underweight and he is starting to on occasion regurgitate me and the vet seem to think he isn't producing the acids to digest anything bigger than Rat hoppers but he is at that stage he needs something more.
Its all a headache and my own health ain't great the vets have talked about maybe letting him pass but he was on deaths door when i got him and he obviously so badly wanted to live as he ate even after transport and stress and a vet trip he ate the same day
Im just not sure how we can help him further now as he seems to be going backwards
Sorry its not a great update on him.

[Bogertophis]

So sorry to hear he's still not doing very well. If he's eating dead prey, have you tried adding digestive enzymes to his food? (Best way is to push them into the oral cavity- aka mouth- of the rodent so the snake doesn't smell anything different & have any reason to reject the meal.) It makes some sense to me that his digestion would be poor if he's underweight, because production of digestive enzymes requires good nutrition, so it's a vicious circle.

Can I assume you also tried giving him probiotics in his meals? (I had to go refresh my memory with your earlier thread about Nakoa.)

Regurgitation is certainly a big concern though & without knowing what your vet has tested for, nor what other treatments he may already have had, I don't know what else to suggest. It could be something like crypto that's slow to show up, I suppose? If it's crypto, there's clearly not much you can do, so I hope that's not it. And your vet has a point- we can't "win" them all & maybe you need to focus on your own issues & "the big picture" now? Sick snakes can be so tough to deal with- they don't always give us enough clues.

He might also just have some sort of stricture in his digestive tract- a "birth defect" that limits his capacity to eat enough & grow properly, in which I'd personally opt for euthanasia- not surgical intervention. -Assuming you could find someone skilled & willing, because it would still mean too much suffering for the snake, IMO.

[Nakoa]

So sorry to hear he's still not doing very well. If he's eating dead prey, have you tried adding digestive enzymes to his food? (Best way is to push them into the oral cavity- aka mouth- of the rodent so the snake doesn't smell anything different & have any reason to reject the meal.) It makes some sense to me that his digestion would be poor if he's underweight, because production of digestive enzymes requires good nutrition, so it's a vicious circle.

Can I assume you also tried giving him probiotics in his meals?

Regurgitation is certainly a big concern though & without knowing what your vet has tested for, nor what other treatments he may already have had, I don't know what else to suggest. It could be something like crypto that's slow to show up, I suppose? If it's crypto, there's clearly not much you can do, so I hope that's not it. And your vet has a point- we can't "win" them all & maybe you need to focus on your own issues & "the big picture" now? Sick snakes can be so tough to deal with- they don't always give us enough clues.

Im thinking of adding digestive enzymes to see if it will help him.
He is getting probiotics yes but that doesn't seem to be making any difference but he is bringing up his food 50% of the time and then having to give him 2 weeks off to heal its doing him no good at all maybe with the enzymes as well that might be better, can you recommend a good one?

he gets blood and fecal/swaps etc often has been tested for crypto always came back negative but it is another thing that does worry me with that being what it is.

He is doing better in himself he is more active he has a habit of pushing his water bowl around his enclosure so had to give him a heavier one, he gets out on the bed for exercise when he isn't digesting or healing and when he has had enough he tries to hide under my hand and sleep and he is really sweet but a real stress for us right now

[Nakoa]

https://www.reptilecentre.com/vetark...4aAsrGEALw_wcB


I was looking at this one for him, is this any good to help him? never really had to deal with using this sort of stuff before even though iv had many rescues none as bad as Nakoa

[Bogertophis]

https://www.reptilecentre.com/vetark...4aAsrGEALw_wcB


I was looking at this one for him, is this any good to help him? never really had to deal with using this sort of stuff before even though iv had many rescues none as bad as Nakoa

Sorry, I can't advise on this -not familiar with it.

Also, it's been a while since I've used any digestive enzymes (the type for veterinary use in carnivores) & I cannot recall what brand I used in the past, but just ask your vet, as regional availability will be part of the equation too. Brand matters very little, IMO.

[Bogertophis]

... he is bringing up his food 50% of the time and then having to give him 2 weeks off to heal its doing him no good at all...

Might be time to listen to the sad opinion your vets gave you- to "let him go" as that's not a sustainable much less a good life for a snake- snakes are very stoic so he's probably feeling worse than you think, & his "activity" probably reflects his internal discomfort, & quite possibly pain. I'm so sorry to say that, & I'm not seeing him in person, just going by what you've said, but honestly, I'd consider euthanasia at this point. Unfortunately we cannot help them all, & we need to consider their suffering too, especially since it sounds like you've done pretty much all you could for him.

Remember that in nature, not all survive anyway- & if it is some internal malformation that's causing this, you'd not want to pass it on, certainly.

BTW, the only time I've tried digestive enzymes for a snake was a VERY different situation altogether- and they helped very little anyway. It was actually for a rattlesnake that couldn't digest after his former owner had his venom glands removed surgically to "make him a safe pet"- not considering the fact that venom appears to be the main source of their digestive enzymes. Some can digest without using their own venom (their stomach normally produces some digestive enzymes too), but this one clearly could not. Ultimately the added enzymes did very little for him- what actually worked best was to use a "venom donor"- I had one of my other rattlesnakes (fully venomous) bite his rodents for him, & happily that did the trick. The other rattlesnake thought I was a real jerk for stealing his food after he'd nailed it though, and oh the dirty looks I got! But he got plenty more to "keep"- & he clearly had no shortage of venom anyway.

[Nakoa]

Might be time to listen to the sad opinion your vets gave you- to "let him go" as that's not a sustainable much less a good life for a snake- snakes are very stoic so he's probably feeling worse than you think, & his "activity" probably reflects his internal discomfort, & quite possibly pain. I'm so sorry to say that, & I'm not seeing him in person, just going by what you've said, but honestly, I'd consider euthanasia at this point. Unfortunately we cannot help them all, & we need to consider their suffering too, especially since it sounds like you've done pretty much all you could for him.

Remember that in nature, not all survive anyway- & if it is some internal malformation that's causing this, you'd not want to pass it on, certainly.

BTW, the only time I've tried digestive enzymes for a snake was a VERY different situation altogether- and they helped very little anyway. It was actually for a rattlesnake that couldn't digest after his former owner had his venom glands removed surgically to "make him a safe pet"- not considering the fact that venom appears to be the main source of their digestive enzymes. Some can digest without using their own venom (their stomach normally produces some digestive enzymes too), but this one clearly could not. Ultimately the added enzymes did very little for him- what actually worked best was to use a "venom donor"- I had one of my other rattlesnakes (fully venomous) bite his rodents for him, & happily that did the trick. The other rattlesnake thought I was a real jerk for stealing his food after he'd nailed it though, and oh the dirty looks I got! But he got plenty more to "keep"- & he clearly had no shortage of venom anyway.

We have been talking about it that maybe its in his best interest but its a choice to make because sometimes he can be fine eats great no problems then 2 feeds later he throws it back up then 2 weeks off and back up again, guess its something to talk to with the vet.

Thank you for the advice and il let everyone know what happens with him and if it comes down to it he will most definitely be missed in this house

[Bogertophis]

We have been talking about it that maybe its in his best interest but its a choice to make because sometimes he can be fine eats great no problems then 2 feeds later he throws it back up then 2 weeks off and back up again, guess its something to talk to with the vet.

Thank you for the advice and il let everyone know what happens with him and if it comes down to it he will most definitely be missed in this house

I know it's very hard to give up when you keep thinking you see signs of improvement. And btw, I'm assuming you've triple-checked that he has adequate warmth to digest? Have you tried bumping just a few degrees higher than most BPs require? (but staying within safe parameters, of course) And you've been only feeding small prey, right?

From what you've just described above ("...eats great...then 2 feeds later throws it back up...) it sounds to me like there's some sort of partial obstruction* that sometimes allows food to pass, but keeps getting caught & again blocking the passage at other times. Like a small tumor or other malformation -like a flap- that gets caught & obstructs? But again, to put a snake thru major GI tract surgery to first find & then repair it is just not something I'd do- because it's so much risk & long time suffering for such a slight chance of success- & again, that's assuming you could even find someone with the skills, never mind what they'd charge. I personally wouldn't put a snake thru that, but ultimately it's between you & your vet, & I wish you the best no matter what you decide.

One other thought- what does his stool look like? I'm assuming he has passed some now & then? I've actually heard of snakes born or hatched without an opening to pass wastes from their body but it's rare & they wouldn't have lived this long. Snakes can get blocked up from abnormal tissues like tumors & strictures, or from urate stones or undigestible debris, & if he's unable to expel wastes from his body for whatever reason, that alone would make his meals come back up. When he has upchucked his meals, I assume they were actually from his stomach (ie. vomited & not just regurgitated without digestion)? ***How digested were they?*** (How soon after eating did they come back up? I'm still wondering if digestive enzymes could help?)

I'm also assuming your vet has plenty of experience with snakes? Please do give us an update- so sorry you're dealing with such a tough problem.