P-A-M poisoning

[67temp]

Even when following the directions things can happen. We recently had to deal with this issue and I hate to see an animal go through the experience. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Here is what has been going on in the past week.

Saturday and Sunday we did a show. I transported several display animals in 6qt shoebox bins (w/ ventilation holes). After the show on Sunday I treated the bins because I don't want mites in my collection. The bins sat out and dried for several days. On Wednesday I got in a very young pair of IJ carpet pythons. They got set up in the bins and put into quarantine. Thursday morning I noticed the female had spilled her water. So I changed out her paper towels, and gave her fresh water. I observed a little periscoping and just a hint of wobble from her but thought it was just being a curious baby. By the time I got home from work on Thursday evening she was in a pretty bad state. I walked into the room and could instantly smell the chemicals. The poor little thing had been inside a small enclosed area and being so young probably didn't help. She had also spilled her water again.Her spilling the water had reactivated the treatment. It was probably the worst nuero issue you will ever see, way worse than a spider or jag problem. She was flailing around, gapped mouth, corkscrewing, and whole body convulsions. I scooped her up and took her to the sink to give her a rinse to remove as much of the chemicals as possible. The vet (reptile vet) was called and told what we thought was the cause and described her current condition. He said there wasn't much that he could do and the poison just had to run its course. He did says to rinse her off more and give her a soak in blue dawn dish soap. Over the next 2-3 days the spasm fits slowly settled down and became less and less frequent. We found that it seemed to helped a lot keeping her warmer, particularly human body heat. She would be ok with being held, curled up inside my shirt, or in a smaller bin on your lap. I tried 5-6 times to move her into a small 5 gal tank with a UTH. Each time the convulsions would start again typically within a minute or two. I spent the better part of 2 days holding this little girl in one form or another. The past 2-3 days she has been in the 5 gal tank and acting more normal. Even climbing up and using the perch at night. There doesn't appear to be any long term neurological damage. I probably could have gotten a pic or video of her condition but her health and care was more important to me at the time.

Hopefully this can be a lesson or help someone in the future.

[67temp]

This is the little girl that got poisoned. Her name is Apple.

[Toad37]

Thanks for coming out and sharing the "bad". I'm really sorry to hear about what happened but I'm stoked that she's doing better! It's nice that we can share our good and bad experiences to better help the community. Thanks again.

[Bogertophis]

OMG, what a horrible experience, & so easy for others to replicate accidentally: I mean, raise your hand if your snakes never spill their water bowls?

Thank you for sharing this, and I really hope your little IJ makes a full recovery. Lucky you found her when you did...

Maybe this is a dumb question, but how could this have been avoided? You followed directions, cages were fully dry, & snakes do spill their water. Many
say they pre-treat their cages to avoid mite out-breaks, so I'm surprised this doesn't actually happen more often?

All I can think of is that with new acquisitions you should offer water daily+ with supervision & keep the bowl out of the cage until you can wash the
P-A-M out of the cage entirely? -like once you're sure there's no mites?

[Toad37]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but how could this have been avoided? You followed directions, cages were fully dry, & snakes do spill their water. Many
say they pre-treat their cages to avoid mite out-breaks, so I'm surprised this doesn't actually happen more often?

I too wonder this. It seem like you've followed all the correct protocols and your an experienced keeper so it's not like you've never done this. Do you maybe have some insight on how it happened? Or maybe some insight on how to avoid it from happening in the future for the rest of us? This seems like a good educational moment for us all.

[AbsoluteApril]

Don't IJs have neuro issues already?

Did you spray just the tub or also the towels?
I've used PAM for years and even with a spilled water, never had any issues. I'm really sorry to hear this happened. If I were you, I'd contact Pro-Products for their feedback.

[Craiga 01453]

Thanks so much for sharing.

I'm sorry you and your new girl had to go through that. Wishing you both all the best.

[67temp]

Bogertophis

OMG, what a horrible experience, & so easy for others to replicate accidentally: I mean, raise your hand if your snakes never spill their water bowls?

Thank you for sharing this, and I really hope your little IJ makes a full recovery. Lucky you found her when you did...

Maybe this is a dumb question, but how could this have been avoided? You followed directions, cages were fully dry, & snakes do spill their water. Many
say they pre-treat their cages to avoid mite out-breaks, so I'm surprised this doesn't actually happen more often?

All I can think of is that with new acquisitions you should offer water daily+ with supervision & keep the bowl out of the cage until you can wash the
P-A-M out of the cage entirely? -like once you're sure there's no mites?

Those are all very good questions. I have to wonder if having some type of substrate other than paper towels would have helped absorb the water. Maybe a better system when pretreating a previously used enclosure is to treat it then let it sit for at least a month or the hatch time for any potential mites. Then fully scrub, rinse out and allow to dry. Maybe another options is to just give them a small enough amount of water to get a drink and not an amount to soak in.

The vet didn't seem all that surprised and had answers pretty quick. So it must happen on occasion. While she was recovering I was googling and came across a prior thread here where someone had a snake poisoned by it and just had to wait out he side affects.

[Gio]

Don't IJs have neuro issues already?

Did you spray just the tub or also the towels?
I've used PAM for years and even with a spilled water, never had any issues. I'm really sorry to hear this happened. If I were you, I'd contact Pro-Products for their feedback.

April, I believe you may be thinking of the JAG gene. IJ's are pretty solid and one of the more popular carpets however if there are JAG genetics in the mix, that could add to some of the issues.

Sounds like things here are headed in the right direction.

Good advice on contacting Pro-Products to get their take.

[67temp]

Don't IJs have neuro issues already?

Did you spray just the tub or also the towels?
I've used PAM for years and even with a spilled water, never had any issues. I'm really sorry to hear this happened. If I were you, I'd contact Pro-Products for their feedback.

IJ's don't have nuero problems, only Jag's can. They are similar to spider balls with each having varying degrees of it.

I sprayed just the tubs. It's hard to say exactly how much got on the tub though. It could have also been because it was a smaller enclosure and she is only about 4 months old.