Question for those who you barren tubs

[Bogertophis]

To me it's not much different than the way preschool functions for little kids: it offers exposure to new things, and it's those new things that make more brain
connections. While we assume reptile brains are vastly different from ours, I still think they operate along the same lines...the more varied their exposure, the
better the brain turns out, and the more resilient the owner. Also, snakes gain some muscle strength & coordination by crawling over things (or climbing, depend-
ing on the species)...a snake that just lays around on a flat smooth surface cannot possibly have the same physicality as one with options to explore, and I stronglysuspect their brain works better as a result.

Snakes that are suddenly taken out & go hide have not yet learned from the beginning that they can do this & survive...so of course they try to hide immediately.
That doesn't mean you should just quit trying to enrich their experiences, IMO. That's like handing a 4 year old a book, & because they can't read it, you take it
away & offer no further education...

[Jmarshall]

To me it's not much different than the way preschool functions for little kids: it offers exposure to new things, and it's those new things that make more brain
connections. While we assume reptile brains are vastly different from ours, I still think they operate along the same lines...

I had posted an interesting article about this exact thing. There is research that shows that a reptiles brain is not as different from our own than we once thought.

https://massivesci.com/articles/liza...e-brain-human/

This kind of stuff is super interesting to me because ever since I joined the forum almost a year ago, I was told they are simple, instinctual, not complex animals. It is interesting to read stuff stating the contrary. I think the jury is still out on a lot of the information and we still have so, so much to learn. And my huge AP10 for my single male BP may be overkill.. But I love him and want to provide the best that I possibly can for him.

[Jmarshall]

Yes been there done that already, while I have kept BP for 13 years for breeding purposes I have 20+ years experience keeping reptiles (back than that was one or two at the time), I used to rescue iguanas (which are likely the most poorly kept reptile in the industry), so I am familiar with enrichment, tub, bioactive setup,large enclosure etc, it agsin all depends on the species you keep, lizards are very intelligent and greatly benefit from enrichment and bioactive/natural and large setup well at least large enough to accommodate their size.

In about 10 to 15 years when I will retire from breeding the snakes I will keep (handful of BP, and a handful of misc snake species) will remain in tubs it has work for 13 years and will still work than, again the key is that the needs of the species are met.

The geckos I keep will remain in naturalistic environment and I believe both snakes and geckos will have the same quality of life.

Okay, I can respect that 100%. It sounds like you whole heartedly believe you are providing the best care possible for your animals and thats all that matters. I have a hunch that some breeders may do better if their collection was smaller, which is very sad imo.

Also, I hope you're not taking my conversation and replies as confrontation; that is not my intent at all. I appreciate you sharing your opinion on the matter. I see a lot of your posts and its very obvious you have a ton of experience.

[Bogertophis]

I had posted an interesting article about this exact thing. There is research that shows that a reptiles brain is not as different from our own than we once thought.

https://massivesci.com/articles/liza...e-brain-human/

This kind of stuff is super interesting to me because ever since I joined the forum almost a year ago, I was told they are simple, instinctual, not complex animals. It is interesting to read stuff stating the contrary. I think the jury is still out on a lot of the information and we still have so, so much to learn. And my huge AP10 for my single male BP may be overkill.. But I love him and want to provide the best that I possibly can for him.

That's a good article, thanks for sharing. But I've never needed that to convince me of what I see when I interact with my snakes. If they are as 'dumb' as many believe,
wouldn't I have to re-establish connections with them when I don't handle or interact with them for a while? But I don't...they clearly retain the fact that they know and
accept me as "safe". And why not? In the wild we know they learn their way around & must retain that knowledge to survive (returning to safe shelters from predators
& adverse weather). What's more, they are said to be related to birds way back on the evolutionary 'tree', and some birds are quite intelligent. The big difference is that
birds have features that we can better relate to & use for training...they can hear us, and make sounds in response.

Sadly, we humans have several road-blocks when it comes to recognizing intelligence in so-called lower life forms: if we acknowledge their intelligence, it gnaws on our
conscience when we want to exploit them or exterminate them. It doesn't fit into our own primitive fears either, & we prefer to think of ourselves as SO superior to the
animals around us, that our poor little egos get bruised...

All I know is that I believe in treating the snakes I care for as I'd want to be treated in their place...and to give them the benefit of the doubt about what they know or
understand. What I get back in return, I cannot always express here. Proof is nice, but I haven't spent all these years interacting with snakes with a film crew on hand.

[Godzilla78]

That doesn't mean you should just quit trying to enrich their experiences, IMO. That's like handing a 4 year old a book, & because they can't read it, you take it
away & offer no further education...

Horrible comparison, one is nothing at all like the other.


https://www.morphmarket.com/stores/kaos-balls/

[Bogertophis]

Horrible comparison, one is nothing at all like the other...

Is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANvYB93u2g

[WhompingWillow]

Do you happen to have a link to the video? This topic of reptile welfare is extremely interesting to me and its something I am quite passionate about. It is funny considering I am an extremely green keeper.

This video does a great job of going over the pros and cons of each. https://youtu.be/hM15VUjqOWE

If you want examples of what I would say not to do with racks/tubs, you can pretty much watch any Brian Barczyk video.

[Jmarshall]

This video does a great job of going over the pros and cons of each. https://youtu.be/hM15VUjqOWE

If you want examples of what I would say not to do with racks/tubs, you can pretty much watch any Brian Barczyk video.

I agree. I love snake discovery and the way she sets up her tubs.

[distaff]

Several months ago, I watched a long documentary about the octopus. They don't even really have a central brain - yet they are scary smart. Definitely apples and oranges, and yet...we don't know what we don't know.

I have noticed that the more I pause and pay attention, the more my animals show me.

[the_rotten1]

Me asking others for their opinions and sharing mine is not judging anyone.

If you open a thread with a quote about how small, sterile encloures are only fit for temporary housing and not for the long term then you should expect some people to be upset. You say that you're not judging anyone, but it sounds like you are very much insinuating that anyone who keeps their snakes in a way you disapprove of is abusing their animals.

While the article states multiple times that "reptiles are not the same as mammals" it says nothing about how reptiles are different from one another. Snakes are very different from animals with legs, who need more space to get proper excersize. This includes lizards, frogs, tortoises, and other legged reptiles. The article you linked to doesn't even have a reference that studies ball pythons specifically, just rat snakes. Meanwhile it cites multipe articles on mice and rats... even though the article is primarily about reptiles.

I agree with most of the revommendations the article makes. I would never think of keeping a rhino iguana or a large water monitor in a rack, but it does state that you have to be aware of species specific needs and snakes are a different story.

I've used tanks, terraruims, and racks for my snakes. Some have a preference, others don't. Of the five species I keep, only ball pythons seem to have a preference. The rest of the snakes do well in either type of enclosure. Some of the ball pythons do too. It really comes down to personality. However, many of them just don't like being in a wide open enclosure. This article claims that bigger is better. I respectfully disagree. Keeping the needs of the snake met is better.

No article or scientific study is going to convince me to move one of my female ball pythons to a large terrarium if I know doing so will make her feel insecure enough to stop eating. I know my snakes and their behavior. I know when they are scared and stressed out. I will not keep them that way. A great many of them prefer the small, sterile enclosures that you may consider inadequate for permanent housing. Should I just drop them in a larger enclosure and watch them suffer?

I'm happy to keep snakes in tanks and terrariums when I know they do well in them, but I don't think large and well decorated enclosures are universally better. Enrichment is fine for snakes that can handle it, but ball pythons are a more reclusive species and not all of them are up for that. The health of my snakes comes before what I think is pretty or "natural". Predators, injury, and disease are all natural too. I'm not going to expose my snakes to any of that.