new interest in snakes, trying to learn.

[smoothnobody]

i've been playing with the idea of breeding animals for a few years. recently started looking in to more seriously. i've looked at all kinds of animals from snakes to foxes lizards sugar gliders and a bunch of others. snakes seem the most interesting and have the largest range of colors and patterns. been reading and watching videos for a few days. my knowledge is quite limited due to no experience but i think i've learned quite a bit. wanted to go through what i've learned so far.

handling: can be ok for short durations, but not really recommended cause snakes are solitary animals and don't want attention. i've also heard the opposite from owners that say their snakes enjoy the stimulation and body heat.

feeding: no benefit to live feed, frozen is best cause no risk of injury to animal. the only part of this that doesn't make sense is when i think about fruits and veggies. they start losing nutrients shortly after harvest. i would assume it's the same for something that is dead and frozen.

enclosures: people who consider snakes their pets buy fancy terrariums with hides substrate heat rocks wood for climbing and flowing water. breeders and people with experience tend to provide the bare minimum, plastic tubs and paper for easy clean up. this seems to be the most conflicting aspect for me. i want my animals to be happy, but from what i hear snakes are very basic creatures and it's debatable whether a snake can be happy. people with experience will say they only need their basic needs, food heat and water. everything else is more for the human than the snake. thoughts?

snake species: boas get big, not in to it. ball pythons seem to be the most popular cause of size, 3-5 feet. but i hear some boas are within that 3-5 range, while some pythons such as reticulated get pretty beefy. what is a good species to look at? want something that is nub friendly, has a unique look, and commands more than a few bucks to own one. so far i only looked at ball carpet blood and tree pythons.

breeding: i was originally thinking of getting one male and one female. but later learned that many breeders will breed one male with multiple females. some say don't breed with more than 3, others say they breed with 4-6. i know there are alot of factors here, but if you guys had to pick a number, what would it be? was thinking about breeding within the same sub-species so i know what the offspring will be. but i hear alot of breeders enjoy cross breeding cause you can end up with a new sub-species. what do you guys think?

eggs: i hear ball is between 3-6. some of the other pythons i looked at say 20-30 and up to 100. i want to be able to make profit to support the hobby/business so from that aspect you want lots of eggs, but 50-100 eggs sounds nuts. the tree python, a species i have interest in, can have 30. wondering how difficult it will be for an amateur to find homes for these snakes and what forums marketplaces or trade shows you guys recommend.

any other advice is also appreciated. thank you.

[richardhind1972]

There’s plenty of nice locality boas with are so nice and stay under 4ft
The leopard boas come in some amazing pair jobs too
My Nicaraguan boas are under 5ft and not too girthy and even My Peruvian Bcl are only just over 5ft they all over 3 so nearly fully grown
The bcc true red tails are larger boas generally and the Argentine too
But there are some exceptions of bci which are over 7ft but most females are just over 6ft and makes around 5ft
Hope this helps


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[smoothnobody]

thanks for dropping some species names. i will look in to them. think i probably should have mentioned weight too. this is something i have not looked in to yet. i hear most pythons, even the ones that hit 5 foot, will not attack/eat/kill pets. specifically cats. i have a cat and the thought of something like that spooks me so want to make sure whatever i own is not able to hurt my furry one. length is less of a concern as weight and killing power.

[richardhind1972]

My Nicaraguan and my Peruvian bcl will probably stay on medium rats every 3 weeks as they not really much fatter than that, and the leopards are probably only small -medium rats so not fat at all, the Mexican taharuma and cay caller are less than 4ft so a boa for everyone really

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[artgecko]

The bigger question here IMO is: Do you want to breed snakes because you love and are fascinated by them, or do you want to breed animals and snakes just seem like a good option? I'm not trying to be rude, just noting that this will be important in how you go about things.

Snakes have a long time committment...Much longer than most mammals and other species you could attempt to breed.. i.e. if you were breeding rats and decided that it wasn't for you, rats only have a 2-3 year lifespan. A snake is a 30 year committment. Snakes can also be hard to find homes for depending on your area and what your market is like. You could be stuck taking care of a clutch of 12 babies for longer than a year..Buying feeders, providing housing. This isn't great in any circumstance, but would be even less tenable for someone that doesn't really love snakes. You will also want to check into your local laws. Some places require permits to sell live animals, some recquire liscenses, and some don't allow reptile ownership at all. I would check your city, county, and state laws just in case.

If you are seriously interested in snakes but have no experience with them, I would suggest the following to help you succeed.

1. Go to a reptile show or event (i.e. an educational event put on by your state herp society) where you can get some hands on experience with some of the species you are interested in.. Most shows will have boas, ball pythons, carpets, bloods, and some other rarer species. Get a good look at them in person and handling is a plus too... Try to see babies and adults as some species change quite a bit as they grow. This will give you a better idea of what they look like, but also what their personalities are like.

2. Once you've completed 1, hopefully, you will have gotten a better idea of what species you personally like. I would pick a species you like the looks and personality of and also think you can provide adequate enclosures and care for. Once you've decided, I would not purchase a pair, I would get a single quality female baby (well started on f/t) or juvie and I would raise her for at least a year. Once you've done this, if you are still fascinated by her and enjoy handling and husbandry tasks, then you can start looking for a male to purchase. This will allow you time to decide if this is really for you and it takes males a year less (usually) to get to breedable size anway. Do not skimp on the cost of the female you purchase and research to make sure you are purchasing from a good breeder and paying around market average price...Joing species groups on FB can be a good way to see who is breeding, average prices, what morphs look like, etc.

Personally, I prefer boas over BPs (although I like both). Boas are generally better feeders and are less timid. In general they are not nippy, but some can be. Mexican, Central American, and some island boas stay smaller (~5' and under) so would be a good place to start. Some of the smaller boa localities are known to be more defensive, especially as babies, so can take working with to get them more tame.

I would not let your cat factor into your decision with purchasing a snake... Even my 5.5' adult male BCA can't eat a cat... Plus, if you have a quality cage with a locking glass door, this shouldn't be a factor anyway. I keep my reptiles in a room that my cat does not have access to and have had zero problems.

Some species you didn't mention, that you might want to consider due to size and ease of care: Corn snakes, california king snakes, rosy boas, kenyan sand boas. These are all considerably smaller, and generally easy to care for.

Have you looked at the cost of keeping? Depending on the species you choose, you're either looking at tubs/rack housing or enclosures for adults. I use both racks and enclosures for mine depending on species. Most boas will need an enclosure, as would active or arboreal species (carpets). Bloods can be kept in racks, but need larger tubs than standard. Once you've settled on a species, I'd look at housing cost for babies and adults. Animal Plastics is a good website to look at for cages. For racks, I personally buy from C-serpents. Good thermostats are a must also. I use herpstats for my racks and cages and my reptile room is heated with an oil-filled space heater on a ranco industrial t-stat. For a basic cage / t-stat setup, you're looking at probably $400 or more, with racks, it depends on the number of tubs it will hold. They are cheaper than purchasing housing individually.

For feeders, check out perfect prey and big cheese, these should give you an idea of cost. Most species eat weekly, especially babies. Some species, as adults, eat every other week to every 3-4 weeks. Feeder size should be the girth of your animal and frozen feeders last for no longer than 1 year, with using before 6 months being ideal. Shipping f/t feeders can be pricey, so most people order enough for at least 3-4 months. I do an order every 6 months. I have a collection of 15 snakes and feeders cost me roughly $600 a year buying f/t online in bulk.

Lastly, I'd look into local vet care options. See if there is an exotic vet that will see reptiles in your area. This is a big one, as it can be hard finding a vet that will even see a snake for a respiratory infection or something simple...much less having to find someone to operate if your female becomes egg-bound

Now to address some of your other questions:
Feeding f/t is generally considered safer, but when dealing with large collections, some decie to feed live (breeding their own) for time and cost considerations. Starting out, f/t would be the best option. Know that babies sometiems require live feeds their first feeding before you can switch to f/t.

Enclosure setup/decor is a personal thing. I go both ways. In my AP cages, I use 2 hides, a waterbowl, and climbing branch for animals that will use them. In my tubs, I provide 2 hides, water bowl, and usually something like a rock for them to use at shedding time. I always provide hides to allow them to use their natural behaviors...Even my large boa has a hde (although he doesn't use it much). In my cages, I have the basking shelf option as well which allows them to climb and stretch out. Furnishings are tricky because they can improve some aspects for activity for the snake, but can also pose a threat if not properly cared for..They are more places for bacterial/mold/waste to hide and are more effort to keep clean, etc.

Handling totally depends on your animals and their personalities. I hook train all of my babies so that they know when I am in their tub/enclosure to do maintanance vs. feeding time. handling from a young age can teach the snake that you are not a threat and make handling less stressful on them later in life. It is also easier to take a bite from a baby nippy carpet than to take a bite from an adult. The hope is that with gentle handling, the baby will learn not to be fearful, and thus the adult will not feel the need to nip any more. Most experienced keepers will tell you that snakes become habituated to humans and tolerate handling.. Some snakes may seem to enjoy being outside of their enclosures, but some exploring behavior while out may be the snake trying to find somewhere to hide. Every snake is different. I have BPs that want to "explore" while out, ones that cringe and want nothing more than to get away from me and hide, I have boas that want to climb while out and will do so on my head or anything else available, and I have a carpet and BRB that can be very stressed while handling and flighty. If you want a snake more ameanable to handling, working with them from a young age will help, but they have an inherent personality and not all will tame down. It is best to ask the breeder to recommend an animal that seems to be calmer if you want that as a goal.

I have not begun breeding yet, but am growing up breeders for 3 species. My goal is to support my hobby with my funds from breeding (basically to break even). I have invested in species that I love and enjoy handling and working with, so even if I never end up making my breeding plans work (in terms of profiting or breaking even) I will still love keeping and having my collection. Good luck with your research.

[MR Snakes]

It sounds like you have no idea or care what you own/breed as long as you can make a profit. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. I'd say you need to own a few different species of reptiles and keep them for awhile to see what this is all about. Plus it takes time to gain a reputation to be able to sell reptiles and I think you'll need some time to show you have the experience before you can successfully sell the offspring.

[smoothnobody]

i know you don't mean to be rude. by all means, hit me with every hard question you can think of. i know you guys are able to see 10 steps ahead of me. the honest answer is i have a passion for all animals. i'm one of those people that don't kill spiders and puts them outside cause i think all life should be respected. i've never had an interest in snakes before, but after looking in to them i find them to be interesting creatures. kinda like my cat. cats sometimes have a bad rep but are awesomely misunderstood creatures. snakes kinda fall in that stereotype too but too a much greater degree. i think it would be a good experience to own snakes.

mentioning the lifespan and regulations was a excellent point. i am aware they can live a long time. i've heard up to 40 years. the legal side of things i will have to look in to. i am assuming it won't be a problem in FL. we can have class 1 and 2 cats with a permit so would be shocked to find out they have a hard on about snakes. so far the only issues i've heard about in some states they have restrictions or bans on venomous and anacondas.

have to give you credit again for suggesting i start with only one female. i was aware the females take longer to mature, but the thought of buying her first and getting the male later had not crossed my mind. this makes alot of sense.

so far i have found two sites i believe to be reputable. underground reptiles and BHB reptiles. i've watched a bunch of brians videos. his passion is obvious. even though i don't know him i feel pretty confident his animals are well card for and high quality. who else do you guys recommend i look at?

i have not looked too much in to the cost of keeping. it will play with the numbers so i know what to expect, but it's not an issue. i have looked at the cost of feeders. pretty cheap. i was expecting feeding once a week. was surprised to hear sometimes every 3-4 weeks. was also not aware they are only good for 1 year. appreciate the tip.

making sure i have a local vet that has knowledge with snakes is another good tip.

i have already watched some videos about breeding the feed. i don't think i have the heart for live feedings. i understand snakes have to eat but i don't want it's prey to suffer no matter how short it is. i saw some guy knock out all his feed with some kind of gas, i think it was liquid nitrogen. said something about reducing oxygen and they basically go to sleep. not thrilled about being responsible for taking their lives, but if they are respected and don't suffer i think i can handle it.

enclosure really is my hardest decision so far. since my OP i've been looking at bioactive terrariums. i like the idea. i want that for my snakes. but still unsure if it's going to add quality of life for them. after hearing people with experience saying it's more for the human than the snake it really makes me question the enclosures. especially if i want to breed. if i breed i don't think it's feasible to do bioactive terrariums so might as well not even go down that road.

really appreciate the lengthy post.

[Skyrivers]

i've been playing with the idea of breeding animals for a few years. recently started looking in to more seriously. i've looked at all kinds of animals from snakes to foxes lizards sugar gliders and a bunch of others. snakes seem the most interesting and have the largest range of colors and patterns. been reading and watching videos for a few days. my knowledge is quite limited due to no experience but i think i've learned quite a bit. wanted to go through what i've learned so far.

handling: can be ok for short durations, but not really recommended cause snakes are solitary animals and don't want attention. i've also heard the opposite from owners that say their snakes enjoy the stimulation and body heat.

(They do not benefit from handling other than they benefit from not being scared from it when it is necessary. Some of them rare as it is even enjoy the time out.)

feeding: no benefit to live feed, frozen is best cause no risk of injury to animal. the only part of this that doesn't make sense is when i think about fruits and veggies. they start losing nutrients shortly after harvest. i would assume it's the same for something that is dead and frozen.

(Pre-killed or Frozen Thawed is the preferred method for safety reasons as you noted. Some will only eat life and others will eat almost anything offered. A dead animal will rot but if given right away would be healthy for the snake to eat. You have to feed what the animal will eat. Fish, eggs, rabbits etc....)

enclosures: people who consider snakes their pets buy fancy terrariums with hides substrate heat rocks wood for climbing and flowing water. breeders and people with experience tend to provide the bare minimum, plastic tubs and paper for easy clean up. this seems to be the most conflicting aspect for me. i want my animals to be happy, but from what i hear snakes are very basic creatures and it's debatable whether a snake can be happy. people with experience will say they only need their basic needs, food heat and water. everything else is more for the human than the snake. thoughts?

(Some species like ball pythons enjoy small confined spaces, in general. Some require large and active cages to be healthy. Research the specific species and know you animal. They communicate if they are not happy by their actions. Listen and give them what they need. Anything extra can be a distraction and anything less can cause issues.)

snake species: boas get big, not in to it. ball pythons seem to be the most popular cause of size, 3-5 feet. but i hear some boas are within that 3-5 range, while some pythons such as reticulated get pretty beefy. what is a good species to look at? want something that is nub friendly, has a unique look, and commands more than a few bucks to own one. so far i only looked at ball carpet blood and tree pythons.

(Keep in mind that the normal is more of a generality. I have a 6ft corn snake. I also have a 5ft swarf boa. Every animal is unique and the dedication it takes to care for it is specific to the animal you have. Why not start out with a corn snake or king snake? They are easy to care for and stay relatively small side and in most cases easy to handle. Other species like Tree boas, bloods, and Tree pythons tend to have more attitude or as I call it, defensiveness or food drive. Also adopting an established adult that is easy going is a good idea. You will know some of the animals history and food preferences that was already figured out by someone more experienced. Reticulated pythons are not for beginners! Myself excluded. Yes I still consider myself a noob and am learning every day but I am not the average JOE. Also take your time. When you see an animal that catches your eye and think you are ready, talk to the breeder about the animal. Ask feeding and attitude questions. If you ask enough questions and find more blanks than answers then I would not buy it. A good breeder will be glad to share this info with you and even fallow up after purchase.)

breeding: i was originally thinking of getting one male and one female. but later learned that many breeders will breed one male with multiple females. some say don't breed with more than 3, others say they breed with 4-6. i know there are alot of factors here, but if you guys had to pick a number, what would it be? was thinking about breeding within the same sub-species so i know what the offspring will be. but i hear alot of breeders enjoy cross breeding cause you can end up with a new sub-species. what do you guys think?

(As a new beginner why would you be thinking about breeding yet. You might get the animals and decide keeping them is not for you? You would not be ready to deal with bitey babies. If you buy babies to raise up then they will be year or more away from breeding. Get some experience before going this rout.)

eggs: i hear ball is between 3-6. some of the other pythons i looked at say 20-30 and up to 100. i want to be able to make profit to support the hobby/business so from that aspect you want lots of eggs, but 50-100 eggs sounds nuts. the tree python, a species i have interest in, can have 30. wondering how difficult it will be for an amateur to find homes for these snakes and what forums marketplaces or trade shows you guys recommend.

(Please take caution about Green Tree Pythons. They have huge personalities! Finding people who will provide proper care for them is not easy and would hope you would want them to be cared for properly? Grow and learn before breeding. This hobby requires dedication and caution.)

any other advice is also appreciated. thank you.

Summery. Don't breed yet! Learn and grow. GTP (green tree pythons) are not for beginners. Get an established adult and learn a few years with 1 animal before grabbing a few animals.

[Lord Sorril]

I enjoy reviewing this thread https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...l-python-morph

Comparing prices over time...

[Skyrivers]

i know you don't mean to be rude. by all means, hit me with every hard question you can think of. i know you guys are able to see 10 steps ahead of me. the honest answer is i have a passion for all animals. i'm one of those people that don't kill spiders and puts them outside cause i think all life should be respected. i've never had an interest in snakes before, but after looking in to them i find them to be interesting creatures. kinda like my cat. cats sometimes have a bad rep but are awesomely misunderstood creatures. snakes kinda fall in that stereotype too but too a much greater degree. i think it would be a good experience to own snakes.

Rescuing a spider and having one as a pet are 2 different things. Same with snakes or any other animal. Get some experience. Be open to suggestions from the pros. People will advise because they want to help you and love the snakes enough to try to keep you from getting over your head because WE LOVE ANIMALS ALSO. That is why we are her too.

mentioning the lifespan and regulations was a excellent point. i am aware they can live a long time. i've heard up to 40 years. the legal side of things i will have to look in to. i am assuming it won't be a problem in FL. we can have class 1 and 2 cats with a permit so would be shocked to find out they have a hard on about snakes. so far the only issues i've heard about in some states they have restrictions or bans on venomous and anacondas.

Learn the laws and know them! Some HOAs ban them as well.

have to give you credit again for suggesting i start with only one female. i was aware the females take longer to mature, but the thought of buying her first and getting the male later had not crossed my mind. this makes alot of sense.

Good advice here!

so far i have found two sites i believe to be reputable. underground reptiles and BHB reptiles. i've watched a bunch of brians videos. his passion is obvious. even though i don't know him i feel pretty confident his animals are well card for and high quality. who else do you guys recommend i look at?

Do more research! Morphmarket and many other places to look.

i have not looked too much in to the cost of keeping. it will play with the numbers so i know what to expect, but it's not an issue. i have looked at the cost of feeders. pretty cheap. i was expecting feeding once a week. was surprised to hear sometimes every 3-4 weeks. was also not aware they are only good for 1 year. appreciate the tip.

Do your research. If you have a shipping issue do you have a local supply of feeders? Etc....

making sure i have a local vet that has knowledge with snakes is another good tip.

Good advice!

i have already watched some videos about breeding the feed. i don't think i have the heart for live feedings. i understand snakes have to eat but i don't want it's prey to suffer no matter how short it is. i saw some guy knock out all his feed with some kind of gas, i think it was liquid nitrogen. said something about reducing oxygen and they basically go to sleep. not thrilled about being responsible for taking their lives, but if they are respected and don't suffer i think i can handle it.

Some snakes will only eat live. It is not about what you want but what the animal needs. If you cant handle that then don't step up.

enclosure really is my hardest decision so far. since my OP i've been looking at bioactive terrariums. i like the idea. i want that for my snakes. but still unsure if it's going to add quality of life for them. after hearing people with experience saying it's more for the human than the snake it really makes me question the enclosures. especially if i want to breed. if i breed i don't think it's feasible to do bioactive terrariums so might as well not even go down that road.

As I said before, enclosure is species specific. Learn and grow and ask about others experience before spending money and finding out you have the wrong setup entirely for your animal.

really appreciate the lengthy post.

People are here to lean, grow, and share. Thank people for taking the time to help you. You will have many more questions along the way.