Personal Opinions on Spiders

[the_rotten1]

I love my spiders.




And I have to say, out of this clutch of five babies, the three with the spider gene were the healthiest. They were bigger on average than my two non-spider babies, they hatched out quicker, and they were the first to shed and start eating. No problems whatsoever getting them started. If you look around you'll start to notice that most of the anti-spider crowd have either never owned one, or don't have much experience with them. Meanwhile, most breeders who have knowledge and experience with these gorgeous snakes say they are healthy. Who you believe is up to you.

A few things I can tell you about spiders:

1. The wobble is variable. Not only does it differ from spider to spider, but it also differes from one moment to another. Spiders wobble when excited or under stress, but they move around normally most of the time. If you could see my spiders moving around their tubs, or slithering across my room while they're calm, you wouldn't notice any difference between the way they move and any other BP.
2. The wobble isn't inherently debilitating. If it were, these animals would not thrive as they do. People pooh-pooh it when breeders say that spiders eat, shed, poop, and breed just as well as other snakes, but all of these things are signs of health in a ball python. As we all know, BPs will skip meals for seemingly no reason. An that was suffering would not do as well as most spiders.
3. Both the severity of the wobble and the number of severe cases of wobble are greatly exaggerated. One example is when people compare them to pugs, or other dogs with deformities that cause them pain and health issues. It's not an accurite comparison. Spiders don't have a skull deformity or difficulty breathing. It would be more accurate to compare them to a dog that walks around normally most of the time, but jumps so high that it falls over when excited. I'm sure plenty of toy dogs do that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say people shouldn't breed them because of it.
4. Spiders have good temperament. At least all the ones I've worked with have. I've never had a defensive or nippy spider. At worst, some have been a little flighty when stressed, but they're typically a very friendly and easy-going snake.
5. Spiders have great appetite! Mine typically do not turn down a meal unless they're in shed, breeding, or getting ready to lay eggs. None of them have been particularly picky either. Always great to have a snake that will eat the other snakes' leftovers.
6. They're just plain gorgeous! I have to admit I haven't always been a big fan of black and yellow, but with all the great combos out there you don't have to be. Throw them into coral glow, hypo, or some other color mutation to add some amazing pattern. You want a white snake? White pieds are as white as you can get and some spider pieds have no pattern at all. Look up "white wedding" ball pythons.

Now, all of that said I respect that some people don't like spiders. You're entitled to your own opinions and feelings. If you don't want them in your collection that's perfectly fine by me. I also want to thank everyone in this thread thus far for not going the "breeders are all greedy and care nothing for the health of their snakes" route. It's great to speak with a group of people mature enough to state their reservations without attacking people who don't agree with them. I think y'all are missing out on a great morph, but thanks for being awesome about it.

[Slicercrush]

I love my spiders.




And I have to say, out of this clutch of five babies, the three with the spider gene were the healthiest. They were bigger on average than my two non-spider babies, they hatched out quicker, and they were the first to shed and start eating. No problems whatsoever getting them started. If you look around you'll start to notice that most of the anti-spider crowd have either never owned one, or don't have much experience with them. Meanwhile, most breeders who have knowledge and experience with these gorgeous snakes say they are healthy. Who you believe is up to you.

A few things I can tell you about spiders:

1. The wobble is variable. Not only does it differ from spider to spider, but it also differes from one moment to another. Spiders wobble when excited or under stress, but they move around normally most of the time. If you could see my spiders moving around their tubs, or slithering across my room while they're calm, you wouldn't notice any difference between the way they move and any other BP.
2. The wobble isn't inherently debilitating. If it were, these animals would not thrive as they do. People pooh-pooh it when breeders say that spiders eat, shed, poop, and breed just as well as other snakes, but all of these things are signs of health in a ball python. As we all know, BPs will skip meals for seemingly no reason. An that was suffering would not do as well as most spiders.
3. Both the severity of the wobble and the number of severe cases of wobble are greatly exaggerated. One example is when people compare them to pugs, or other dogs with deformities that cause them pain and health issues. It's not an accurite comparison. Spiders don't have a skull deformity or difficulty breathing. It would be more accurate to compare them to a dog that walks around normally most of the time, but jumps so high that it falls over when excited. I'm sure plenty of toy dogs do that, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say people shouldn't breed them because of it.
4. Spiders have good temperament. At least all the ones I've worked with have. I've never had a defensive or nippy spider. At worst, some have been a little flighty when stressed, but they're typically a very friendly and easy-going snake.
5. Spiders have great appetite! Mine typically do not turn down a meal unless they're in shed, breeding, or getting ready to lay eggs. None of them have been particularly picky either. Always great to have a snake that will eat the other snakes' leftovers.
6. They're just plain gorgeous! I have to admit I haven't always been a big fan of black and yellow, but with all the great combos out there you don't have to be. Throw them into coral glow, hypo, or some other color mutation to add some amazing pattern. You want a white snake? White pieds are as white as you can get and some spider pieds have no pattern at all. Look up "white wedding" ball pythons.

Now, all of that said I respect that some people don't like spiders. You're entitled to your own opinions and feelings. If you don't want them in your collection that's perfectly fine by me. I also want to thank everyone in this thread thus far for not going the "breeders are all greedy and care nothing for the health of their snakes" route. It's great to speak with a group of people mature enough to state their reservations without attacking people who don't agree with them. I think y'all are missing out on a great morph, but thanks for being awesome about it.

Honestly, the more i look, the more ive been wanting a spider morph. Banana spiders look gorgeous, and im gonna be looking at others for sure! Thank you for the input.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Spechal]

My OD Bee used to wobble a little when I got her, but she doesn’t anymore. She does like to twist and turn a lot and sniff up and backwards a lot. To the degree I am amazed she can even do it without falling over. Hence the name Ms. Bender. Wouldn’t trade her for the world. My spinner has zero wobbles and never has. My black pewter Spider doesn’t wobble either. I would and will continue to get bees. My next pick up is butter bee as well, provided she is still available next week. Looking forward to making Butter BELs.

A bit extreme but I like to go hard or go home ... should people with Autism or Down’s syndrome or Alzheimer’s not procreate too? I’m a high functioning autistic and my son is in the 99th percentile for reading, math and science ... tests two grades above his current classmates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EDR]

My killer bee and sugar bee are two of my absolute favorite's. My sugar bee is gorgeous she is the sweetest ball python I have and really doesn't have much of the wobble. My killer bee is a big yellow jelly donut that all ways eats. But she does do the cork screwing when handled and like someone else mentioned when it comes to feeding I need to watch out. But they eat, shed and do everything else just fine. Out of my whole collection my bees have the most personality. I'd post pics but I'm at work.

So with this said if you have a rack too fill and have a spider combo on your mind go for it you shouldn't regret it.

I've been lurking this site since 2013 and I've seen alot of these spider threads and this is one of the more docile one's I've seen so good job people.

[fieldfare]

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

[Valyrian]

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

No one has mentioned the fact that breeding Spider to Spider is not compatible with life. Super Spiders are lethal.

I feel that should be a factor to consider when thinking about the ethics of continuing the gene.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[rufretic]

Personally I doubt I would ever get a spider because I don't think it's great to breed them. They definitely look cool and most of them don't seem to have major issues but we really don't have a great understanding about what snakes are actually feeling/capable of feeling, so I am personally erring on the side of not wanting to risk it. Given that reptile cognition is not well understood at all I think that not being that worried about spider is also a perfectly defensible position.

I do want to say that based on what I have read, the genetic mutation that causes spider is the same one that causes the wobble, so it's not something that can be bred out. The hypothesis was that the spider mutation alters the precursor cells that later become both pigment cells as well as neural cells, so you might have varying patterns and levels of neural problems in different individuals, but it would be determined basically randomly. There's not any way to ensure that spiders that you produce will have low wobble, and you will always run the risk of producing high wobble animals.

I don’t know about the genetics behind it but based on my experience with breeding a spider with no signs of wobble, I would say it is not just random. She laid 7 healthy eggs which all hatched, 6 out of 7 being spider combos. Not one of them showed any signs of wobble. If it was random, I have to think at least one of her offspring would of had some wobble. This year will test the opposite because I am breeding the girl I have that does the corkscrewing. If her offspring do it as well, I think it will be pretty obviously that the severity of wobble in offspring is directly related to the severity of wobble in the parent. If this does prove out, I personally won’t be breeding any more spiders that show wobble but will continue to breed the spiders that do not show signs of wobble.

[the_rotten1]

I don’t know about the genetics behind it but based on my experience with breeding a spider with no signs of wobble, I would say it is not just random. She laid 7 healthy eggs which all hatched, 6 out of 7 being spider combos. Not one of them showed any signs of wobble. If it was random, I have to think at least one of her offspring would of had some wobble. This year will test the opposite because I am breeding the girl I have that does the corkscrewing. If her offspring do it as well, I think it will be pretty obviously that the severity of wobble in offspring is directly related to the severity of wobble in the parent. If this does prove out, I personally won’t be breeding any more spiders that show wobble but will continue to breed the spiders that do not show signs of wobble.

My spider dam (pictured earlier in the thread) has a moderate wobble while her hatchlings have shown little to no wobble so far. Just one example, but it confirms with what I've heard from other breeders. The wobble is said to be random. You can produce a low wobble spider from a high wobble spider and visa versa. That said, really bad wobble seems rare. I've never heard of a spider hatchling fail to thrive solely because of wobble. Here's a good read on it: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

The worst cases I've heard of seem to happen after the snake leaves the breeder. And while I'm sure there are a variety of reasons why, I don't think we can rule out the effects of stress. Some wobblers seem to get worse with age, and others seem to get better, but stress will always make a wobble worse. Most of the "bad wobblers" I've seen and heard about were either subjected to stress specifically to show the wobble, or they were kept in glass tanks with questionable husbandry. Not all, but it seems to be a common thread among really severe cases.

As a breeder, I understand and accept that the amount of wobble my hatchlings may have is out of my control, and that it's possible that if I bred spider to spider (not something I plan on doing) it may result in dead hatchlings (it doesn't always, but it has happened to some). That said, I've had more issues with thermostat malfunctions than I have had with the spider gene. I don't regret breeding my spider girl. Her hatchlings are healthy and beautiful and I'm proud of them. If she regains all her weight, I plan on breeding her again next season.

[Crowfingers]

Been thinking about this thread all week and it just makes me realize how little we know about ball python genes in general. We know how to express colors and patterns, but there is so much more to learn.
Ethics aside for now, this is really just a musing - it would be such a valuable experiment to see what exactly these wobble genes do (in spiders, womas, champagne, etc). especially in the "fatal" combos. The why's of the genes, not just the observable side.

Of course it would require someone dedicate their time to a collection of breeding adults of these morphs in enough numbers to have a good sample size, breed them, incubate eggs that may not ever produce viable young, and have access/assistance from both an embryologist and a genealogist that specialize in reptile development. The failed embryos would have to be necropsied and compared to healthy embryos in the same developmental stage to discover if they were progressing at the correct rate and with the correct parts. I have no idea how much that would all cost lol -

Maybe the gene that causes 'super spiders' to fail is linked to heart or liver/kidney development, maybe the wobble itself is not a gene at all but is a side effect of a gene that prevents correct myelin sheath formation/function? Maybe all of these genes that cause the combos to fail have something developmental that causes the eggs to be slugs in the first place. If the spider gene occupies the same place in the sequence as the champagne gene, maybe there's something else on that sequence that is key to survival. There would just be so much to discover.

This is just the scientific side of my brain wondering about stuff too complex for me to really understand. Also, man what a depressing and time consuming experiment that would be...I have no idea what producing non-viable eggs over time can do to a female, but I assume any egg production is hard on their bodies.

[Slicercrush]

Been thinking about this thread all week and it just makes me realize how little we know about ball python genes in general. We know how to express colors and patterns, but there is so much more to learn.
Ethics aside for now, this is really just a musing - it would be such a valuable experiment to see what exactly these wobble genes do (in spiders, womas, champagne, etc). especially in the "fatal" combos. The why's of the genes, not just the observable side.

Of course it would require someone dedicate their time to a collection of breeding adults of these morphs in enough numbers to have a good sample size, breed them, incubate eggs that may not ever produce viable young, and have access/assistance from both an embryologist and a genealogist that specialize in reptile development. The failed embryos would have to be necropsied and compared to healthy embryos in the same developmental stage to discover if they were progressing at the correct rate and with the correct parts. I have no idea how much that would all cost lol -

Maybe the gene that causes 'super spiders' to fail is linked to heart or liver/kidney development, maybe the wobble itself is not a gene at all but is a side effect of a gene that prevents correct myelin sheath formation/function? Maybe all of these genes that cause the combos to fail have something developmental that causes the eggs to be slugs in the first place. If the spider gene occupies the same place in the sequence as the champagne gene, maybe there's something else on that sequence that is key to survival. There would just be so much to discover.

This is just the scientific side of my brain wondering about stuff too complex for me to really understand. Also, man what a depressing and time consuming experiment that would be...I have no idea what producing non-viable eggs over time can do to a female, but I assume any egg production is hard on their bodies.

Honestly, I was thinking about this too, and doing more research, the topic of "Super Spider" is still highly controversial. From what i'm reading here and there, its generally considered "fatal", but some people are claiming that they have done it and the babies survived. There isn't really any proof to back these up.

If there is a Super Spider that can live, like the "Pearl" that miraculously survived a long time ago, it hasn't been bred yet. This could be because it is an actually fatal combo, or is such a rare chance that we aren't breeding it enough to get one, for the fear of the first reason.

It would be interesting if someone could actually do what you are saying, like track the development of the embryos, and maybe fix and allow a super to exist? My only worry is a "Super" of a wobble gene may not end too well... (Look at HGW x HGW)