Went to petco and saw this

[CALM Pythons]

I dont agree with producing the spider gene. Gorgeous yes, they eat yes and live full lives it seems...but thats is just NOT NORMAL and to produce for a morph over the health or a neurological issue is not right in my eyes. ...to me its a animal that doesn't have control of itself. I hate seeing that.


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[zina10]

I dont agree with producing the spider gene. Gorgeous yes, they eat yes and live full lives it seems...but thats is just NOT NORMAL and to produce for a morph over the health or a neurological issue is not right in my eyes. ...to me its a animal that doesn't have control of itself. I hate seeing that.


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I totally understand your point and respect your opinion.

But I wonder sometimes, exactly where should we draw the line? And how do we know for sure what genetic abnormality causes pain and discomfort? Does un-normal movement cause pain?

It is easy to single out the spiders. Their genetic neurological disorder causes the wobble and when they get stressed it can cause cork screwing. It can be distressing to watch. However, like you said, most eat very well and "seem" to have no severe issues, they thrive, they breed. Similar genetic disorders that show up in some mammals have proven to not be painful. I personally have known a dog with a disorder like that. He walked and ran like crazy drunk, but was as happy go lucky as could be. And with dogs it is fairly easy to detect discomfort and pain, even though they like to hide it.

So we don't know for sure, but it could be possible, they are pain free. Just move funny. At times their strike misses.

What about other genetic abnormalities ? For example, albinos. Now, they too seem perfectly content, they often eat just fine (although some also have trouble with strikes missing, unless the rodent gives out a strong heat signature). We know that albinism can cause problems with eyes. The eyes are very light sensitive and damage can easily be done to the retina when out in the light. Not only that, but it can be painful. Granted...snakes aren't often out in the light. But at times they are. And they don't have lids to protect the retina. Some albinos can also be prone to eye infections or to be borne without one or both eyes.

Knowing all that, should we not breed them or their combos? What if we KNEW for sure that they have discomfort in the eyes every time they are out in the light?

Then we have so many other morphs that can have subtle and not so subtle issues. Some have issues with their spine kinking. That probably isn't exactly a very comfortable thing to live with either. Desert females cannot reproduce. Who knows what exactly goes on internally, and does it cause pain?

As a matter of fact, morphs in themselves are a genetic abnormality.

Long story short, while I don't own or breed spiders anymore, the one I had was a joy to own and she gives a lot of joy to the new owner as well. If there was any snake, no matter the morph, where it was clear it had no quality of life, it wouldn't thrive, it seemed in pain (or it was logical there would be pain) I would have it euthanized no matter the morph. But for now I'm hesitant to throw any one of them to the curb until more research has been done on all the ones that might have potential issues.

But, I do respect your opinion like I've said. Just sharing my opinion on your (and others that feel the same about it) opinion

And while I don't necessarily blame Petco for having ended up with 2 spiders, IF they are in the "morph selling market" they should be in contact with sellers and refuse animals that stress in such an environment even more so then others will. And there shouldn't be more then one snake per enclosure to lower their stress.

[CALM Pythons]

You have great points (as always ) I dont believe its in pain, but I have a feeling cork screwing and being stressed has a effect on the nervous system, heart maybe? Even though their Brain doesn't work like ours I wonder if its almost a struggle ... Could the heartbeat be racing?
Seeing that sets off a emotional response for me, probably not a logical one. I see this differently than say Albinos. I feel it would be more like breeding retarted creatures on purpose just for they're looks..
Hahhahaha Idk.. Its uncomfortable to watch, hell it makes me feel like its having a panic attack like that other persons snake on here a month ago hahahahaha


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[zina10]

I agree with that point, it IS difficult to watch, esp. if it is severe...I, too, find it hard to watch.

Perhaps I think this way about this because I've had a Bumblebee which was a JOY to own and gives so much joy to her new owner.

If I had more space in my house or I hadn't decided to fulfill my dreams of a Desert Ghost collection, I would have never given her up. I can't even explain it, but she is such a fun Ball Python to own. So calm, so curious. So sweet (for a snake). Just never a problem with her. On the other hand, she didn't have a detectable wobble, although they all have that gene. The worst she did, was miss the rodent occasionally.
I get updates on her at least weekly.

So perhaps I just have a emotional attachment to this issue. It would have been a shame if she had never existed, and there are so many people tho adore their snakes despite them having that gene.

It made me think why people single out certain disorders but not others, and where a line should be drawn and what that line should stand for. Such as "pain", "discomfort", "quality of life", "appearance" or ??

Just musings

[WolfJob]

That is so incredibly sad 😞 Breaks my heart.

[SDA]

Spiders do not handle stress at all. If that wasn't petco I would buy that animal in a heart beat and could guarantee once in a stress free environment would stop doing that. That is not severe at all but all stress related

[Aerries]

Hmmm you all bring up such excellent points and truly make me think that maybe having a spider gene beep wouldn’t be too bad but again it’s still uncomfortable for me at this time to watch. Granted with conditioning and understanding that would pass. I know it’s a very touchy subject and I love hearing all the opinions and possible avenues. I didn’t mean to stir the pot either though. Sorry if I did.


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[Joelgriz8124]

My bumble bee has little to no wobble and he is hands down the best snake I have owned . That being said I had a female spider way back before I even knew what head wobble was and she was my first ball python..... I thought she was completely normal until it came time to feeding . As soon as food was introduced her wobble would become just like those in that video and she could barely attack her food accurately . As she got older her wobble got way worse, even when she wasn’t feeding . I don’t think she was ever in pain but I do see where people are coming from on stopping the breeding of the gene. But I’d be a hypocrite to say support it because I will be breeding my bee this year .


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[Alter-Echo]

I have a blackbee mojave orange ghost that so far has no Neuro signs at all. I sometimes wonder if more genes in a spider cross could help "buffer" the effects of the spider wobble. I had a friend that had a queenspin that also showed no signs of Neuro that I ever saw.

[zina10]

I have a blackbee mojave orange ghost that so far has no Neuro signs at all. I sometimes wonder if more genes in a spider cross could help "buffer" the effects of the spider wobble. I had a friend that had a queenspin that also showed no signs of Neuro that I ever saw.

I think they all carry it. If they have the spider gene in them, its part of it.

However, in some it can be so slight, its hard to detect.

I had a Bumble Bee female that you would swear didn't have it. Never cork screwed ever. Never wobbled ever. The worst that I ever saw with her is that she missed the f/t rodent at first strike. And that happened once in a blue moon.

I have since re-homed her and even through the stress of a re-home, no wobble, nothing.

But she carries it. And even though she was only a 2 gene animal (spider, pastel) it displayed so non-severe. Her own hatchlings showed the wobble more so then she did, even though the gene was far more diluted (Killer Spinner). While theirs was far from severe, they had a slight wobble when excited during feeding.

So I don't really buy into this theory..