Fasting or Not?

[Darwin99]

Hi, I'm sure you guys get tons of "my BPs not eating" requests, but I hoped that you could help me out. My BP (Darwin) hasn't eaten since somewhere around December 10, 2017. He was hatched somewhere in late October of 2015, so he is just over two years old. I'm pretty sure that this is about the right age for fasting, as well as time frame. But from what I've read, most fasts end with a shed. He shed sometime two weekends ago (February 3-4), I'm not exactly sure when, because I was away on vacation. But I've offered him food twice since I got back (the fifth), and he's refused both times, the second being tonight. He hasn't visibly lost any weight, and has stayed around 1300 grams. I see him drinking water regularly. He has only pooped twice, but that might make sense because he hasn't eaten anything to poop... When I first got him, he was a very aggressive eater, and would go after the F/T mouse very quickly, and ate it very well. There was a sudden change where he no longer did this, and would often act aggressive, but end up leaving it. Then I would leave it out overnight to the entrance of the hide he was in, and it very often was eaten in the morning. He ate like this all the way up until his fast. Now, whenever I offer food, he seems to show a little bit of interest, he will flick his tongue, but ultimately goes around the terrarium, like he's still looking for food. He appears hungry, but he won't take any food that I leave out or try to directly feed him. I feel like this is more food refusal behaviour than fasting, but I'm not really sure, because I've never had a snake that fasted. Although I don't see any current health problems, I am worried about when he'll start eating, and what I can do to keep him from fasting, or refusing food. He is a fairly large snake, but because he hasn't eaten quite a few times in a row, I switched to smaller prey items, small rats. I heat them up in hot water in a bag, then dry them off and try and feed him. Tonight I used a hairdryer to try and heat it up a little more, but so far it hasn't had any affect. What should I do? I'll answer any questions. Thanks!

[dakski]

Hi, I'm sure you guys get tons of "my BPs not eating" requests, but I hoped that you could help me out. My BP (Darwin) hasn't eaten since somewhere around December 10, 2017. He was hatched somewhere in late October of 2015, so he is just over two years old. I'm pretty sure that this is about the right age for fasting, as well as time frame. But from what I've read, most fasts end with a shed. He shed sometime two weekends ago (February 3-4), I'm not exactly sure when, because I was away on vacation. But I've offered him food twice since I got back (the fifth), and he's refused both times, the second being tonight. He hasn't visibly lost any weight, and has stayed around 1300 grams. I see him drinking water regularly. He has only pooped twice, but that might make sense because he hasn't eaten anything to poop... When I first got him, he was a very aggressive eater, and would go after the F/T mouse very quickly, and ate it very well. There was a sudden change where he no longer did this, and would often act aggressive, but end up leaving it. Then I would leave it out overnight to the entrance of the hide he was in, and it very often was eaten in the morning. He ate like this all the way up until his fast. Now, whenever I offer food, he seems to show a little bit of interest, he will flick his tongue, but ultimately goes around the terrarium, like he's still looking for food. He appears hungry, but he won't take any food that I leave out or try to directly feed him. I feel like this is more food refusal behaviour than fasting, but I'm not really sure, because I've never had a snake that fasted. Although I don't see any current health problems, I am worried about when he'll start eating, and what I can do to keep him from fasting, or refusing food. He is a fairly large snake, but because he hasn't eaten quite a few times in a row, I switched to smaller prey items, small rats. I heat them up in hot water in a bag, then dry them off and try and feed him. Tonight I used a hairdryer to try and heat it up a little more, but so far it hasn't had any affect. What should I do? I'll answer any questions. Thanks!

1. BP's fast, usually in the winter. Not all, but many do (as adults - growing babies can be more ravenous eaters than adults for sure, but not always). It's okay, as long as everything else is ok (temp, humidity, access to hides, appropriate enclosure, etc.). My BP (female) fasts every winter for 4-6 months. She's 5 and has done it for 3 years now. She eats when she is ready and usually loses between 5-8% of her body weight. She still drinks, passes urine and urate, etc.

They say males do it more than females, but my female happily fasts in the winter.

If your guy is 1300G, I assume he is an adult, correct? If by some weird chance, he is still young, you might be slightly more concerned, but that sounds like a good sized boy who can fast no problem.

Everything may be fine. Likely much harder on you than on him.

2. Don't force him to eat. Mine can be shy, and often won't strike, and I will leave for up to an hour or two. She's an established eater. Some say leave all night, but I know my BP; if she doesn't eat in an hour or so, she isn't going to. Trying to get him interested in food can actually turn him off more and make him less likely to eat. Offer on your regular schedule, or less, but definitely not more. I offer every 1 week normally, but usually a little less when she is fasting. Say every two weeks.

3. I am not sure you are defrosting the prey item appropriately.

I let thaw in room temp/slightly warm to start water. NEVER HOT. Not even body temp (for humans lol). I only warm the water a little during defrost if it's a huge prey item - not the case with BP's. A male BP should be eating large "small" rats, or smaller medium rats. They should defrost in room temp water in under 2 hours. Give or take.

Then, once completely thawed, you can use a hair dryer, or I prefer, hot water, to warm up the rat. I use hot, not boiling or close, water from the tap. Generally not more than 120F. I put the rat in for 30 seconds or so, take out, dry fast, and then offer.

The key is you do not want to cook the rat at all. Snakes eat raw food. Even slightly cooked may lead to refusal, and isn't good for the snake. They are designed to eat raw and do not process cooked food well.

You said you heat up the rats in hot water. Not clear how you defrost, but wanted to be clear, do not cook at all. I use a sous vide to cook meat at home for family consumption (human consumption). You can cook a pork chop in 1 1/2 hours at 130F. A rat will start to cook in hot water in much less time.

If I am overdoing it on defrosting, and you are doing it right. Just give him time.

As I mentioned earlier; he's probably fine.

[Darwin99]

1. BP's fast, usually in the winter. Not all, but many do (as adults - growing babies can be more ravenous eaters than adults for sure, but not always). It's okay, as long as everything else is ok (temp, humidity, access to hides, appropriate enclosure, etc.). My BP (female) fasts every winter for 4-6 months. She's 5 and has done it for 3 years now. She eats when she is ready and usually loses between 5-8% of her body weight. She still drinks, passes urine and urate, etc.

They say males do it more than females, but my female happily fasts in the winter.

If your guy is 1300G, I assume he is an adult, correct? If by some weird chance, he is still young, you might be slightly more concerned, but that sounds like a good sized boy who can fast no problem.

Everything may be fine. Likely much harder on you than on him.

2. Don't force him to eat. Mine can be shy, and often won't strike, and I will leave for up to an hour or two. She's an established eater. Some say leave all night, but I know my BP; if she doesn't eat in an hour or so, she isn't going to. Trying to get him interested in food can actually turn him off more and make him less likely to eat. Offer on your regular schedule, or less, but definitely not more. I offer every 1 week normally, but usually a little less when she is fasting. Say every two weeks.

3. I am not sure you are defrosting the prey item appropriately.

I let thaw in room temp/slightly warm to start water. NEVER HOT. Not even body temp (for humans lol). I only warm the water a little during defrost if it's a huge prey item - not the case with BP's. A male BP should be eating large "small" rats, or smaller medium rats. They should defrost in room temp water in under 2 hours. Give or take.

Then, once completely thawed, you can use a hair dryer, or I prefer, hot water, to warm up the rat. I use hot, not boiling or close, water from the tap. Generally not more than 120F. I put the rat in for 30 seconds or so, take out, dry fast, and then offer.

The key is you do not want to cook the rat at all. Snakes eat raw food. Even slightly cooked may lead to refusal, and isn't good for the snake. They are designed to eat raw and do not process cooked food well.

You said you heat up the rats in hot water. Not clear how you defrost, but wanted to be clear, do not cook at all. I use a sous vide to cook meat at home for family consumption (human consumption). You can cook a pork chop in 1 1/2 hours at 130F. A rat will start to cook in hot water in much less time.

If I am overdoing it on defrosting, and you are doing it right. Just give him time.

As I mentioned earlier; he's probably fine.

Thanks for the quick response! You very well could be right that my defrosting process is a little flawed, so I can change that. I usually fill a container with hot water, pretty much as hot as the tap will go, then plop the rat-in-bag into it. I wait until the rat is defrosted right through, the I fry it off and feed him. In the future, after doing some reading- I think that I'll put the food item in the fridge the night before, to thaw. Then I can heat it up with warm water, and then to realistic body temps with the hairdryer. Sound good? I'll feed probably next Friday, maybe Wednesday depending on what I think at the time.

[ckuhn003]

If by some weird chance, he is still young, you might be slightly more concerned, but that sounds like a good sized boy who can fast no problem.

Very informative response Dakski. I enjoy reading your posts. I don't mean to hijack this thread but it sounds like I'm going through the same issue. Two weeks of refusal but my male is significantly smaller (350grams). From your quote above, should I be concerned or just ride the wave until he decides to eat again.

[dakski]

Thanks for the quick response! You very well could be right that my defrosting process is a little flawed, so I can change that. I usually fill a container with hot water, pretty much as hot as the tap will go, then plop the rat-in-bag into it. I wait until the rat is defrosted right through, the I fry it off and feed him. In the future, after doing some reading- I think that I'll put the food item in the fridge the night before, to thaw. Then I can heat it up with warm water, and then to realistic body temps with the hairdryer. Sound good? I'll feed probably next Friday, maybe Wednesday depending on what I think at the time.

A lot of people use the fridge to defrost. I prefer not to. Even defrosted in the fridge it's going to be cold. So you would need to safely warm up somehow, probably room temp water, before heating up quickly in hot water and/or with a hair dryer.

IMO, just drop in the room temp water in a plastic bag a few hours before feeding. Then you kill two birds with one stone. Make sure thawed through, then drop in the hot water for a 1/2 minute, and/or use the hairdryer. I find the hot water is faster and more through at warming. Just my opinion though.

Plus, my fiancé does not like rodents in the fridge! I have a separate chest freezer for all my snake food!

[dakski]

Very informative response Dakski. I enjoy reading your posts. I don't mean to hijack this thread but it sounds like I'm going through the same issue. Two weeks of refusal but my male is significantly smaller (350grams). From your quote above, should I be concerned or just ride the wave until he decides to eat again.

I am not an expert by any means. I am a proud and thorough reptile owner. I do like helping people, sharing what I do know, and taking the time for people that respond well, listen, and have animals that are better off. People who know what they are doing seem to enjoy keeping reptiles more as well.

The point is, I would prefer someone else chime in here. Not sure how long a 350G male can go without food. However, BP's often skip food in shed, during shipment, etc. 2 weeks is not a long time. My guess is as long as he is not losing weight quickly, is healthy otherwise, etc, you can probably go a while longer.

Besides, what it the alternative? Force feed? Again, that's a life or death thing in my opinion. So, don't worry too much and he will probably eat soon.

If he doesn't eat for another two weeks, I would offer every two weeks instead of weekly for a couple of meals. Sometimes they will get used to refusing and/or just want to be left alone for a bit. Ultimately, they end up eating. It is just a pain for us keepers!

How old is he? What food items are you offering (size and type - rat or mouse). Any changes in husbandry or tank, etc? Could he be going into shed? Maybe he refused one meal and is going to shed, etc. and so refused the second, but it's not really a pattern yet?

[Sunnieskys]

I take the rat out in the morning and leave it on the counter, in its plastic bag of course...or the cat would smell it lol. I then warm it up in hot water at night when I feed her.

[dakski]

I take the rat out in the morning and leave it on the counter, in its plastic bag of course...or the cat would smell it lol. I then warm it up in hot water at night when I feed her.

LOL - the cat!

My dogs pretty much could care less. That's funny!

How does the cat get along with the snake?

[Sunnieskys]

I keep a squirt bottle with me when snakes are out. Snakes are never out of arms reach of me and cats are not allowed within arms reach of me lol. If they take a step they get squirted. No snakes for them. I have two that don't care about the snakes and one that is still interested and wants to get close. He gets squirted...a lot!

[ckuhn003]

If he doesn't eat for another two weeks, I would offer every two weeks instead of weekly for a couple of meals. Sometimes they will get used to refusing and/or just want to be left alone for a bit. Ultimately, they end up eating. It is just a pain for us keepers!

How old is he? What food items are you offering (size and type - rat or mouse). Any changes in husbandry or tank, etc? Could he be going into shed? Maybe he refused one meal and is going to shed, etc. and so refused the second, but it's not really a pattern yet?

Appreciate the response. He's a little over a year old feeding on f/t mice (approx 25-30 gram). I tried the conversion to rat pups a couple months ago and it didn't go well (i.e. regurgitation). Went through the whole recovery process and he went back on mice w/o problems. No changes in husbandry other then changing the direction of his hides in his pvc enclosure. His hot spot is a little on the high side (93) so I might try and get that down a couple of degrees. Ambients are 76-79 and humidity is 70%. Don't think he's going into shed because his last shed was pretty recent (about a month ago). He's been mostly a shy eater (drop and leave) and on a couple occasions when he's been really hungry he's struck and drug it back in the hide. Hopefully the left prey tonight will be gone in the morning but last week's no show gives me some doubts. Bottom line, is that I was hoping he would be a little more beefier then 350 before a fast.