Can they be this smart??

[Adam_Wysocki]

I think what you are missing is the scientific difference between a domesticated animal and a wild animal that has been tamed. Dogs, horses, and cows are all scientifically considered domesticated animals. Camels, elephants, and Lama are all wild animals that in parts of the world have been tamed and used as work animals by humans.

Biologists assign certain traits to domesticated animals, first and foremost is their diet. Domesticated animals are all herbivores or at least omnivores. A quick peek at the contents of any dog food will have you asking "where's the beef?". Ease of breeding is also generally required for an animal to become domesticated. While snakes are seemingly bred with great ease, the fact that their breeding has to be induced makes them a poor candidate for domestication. Other factors such as time to sexual maturity, social structure, panic response, and general disposition make snakes probably one of the least likely species of animal to become domesticated at any point.

Can a wild or captive bred snake be tamed and make a great pet? Absolutely! ... The same way people keep bears, elephants, cougars, and other exotics with great success. But taming is a far cry from domestication.

(Cornsnakes are, in many places, being more or less classed as domestic due to their friendly, outgoing natures already).

Can you please clarify this statement? ... Who is performing this classification? I try and stay pretty up to date on most of the current research being done in the herpetological field (especially relating to snakes) and I've never heard of any such project. I'm thinking that you mean that many people are mistakenly falling under the opinion that cornsnakes are domestic??

Oh, and FWIW, you'd be hard pressed to find a biologist that would consider cats a domesticated animal. They lack the ability to socially blend into a domesticated environment and within a single generation can produce feral offspring that cannot be kept domestically. The idea that cats are actually domesticated is really a misnomer scientifically speaking.

Hope this helps.

-adam

[mr~python]

Camels, elephants, and Lama are all wild animals that in parts of the world have been tamed and used as work animals by humans.

i know camels are not wild atleast not dromedarys(i saw that on the Crocodile Hunter so i dont know if its completly true), and why would a scientist call a domestic cat wild if there scientific name is
Felis Domesticus?... DOMESTICUS!!! im not trying to be rude but that is what i think. if im wrong please explain. i dont want to start an argument, please.

[Lady Python]

Adam. I read that statement on one of the forums a couple of months back. I believe it was one of the herp associations here in the UK somewhere, but I can't remember which one. I'll try and find out for you and let you know which one it was.


My personal point of view is that all domestic animals can revert back to being wild. Dogs that are thrown out by heartless owners revert back to being what they are - pack animals. We had a pack of stray dogs roaming here last year which were causing a lot of problems. Just like my rescue snake, they were probably unwanted Christmas presents. The local Dog Warden had a difficult job rounding them up. They'd reverted to being wild and untrusting of humans (who could blame them though). Domestic cats are just the same. I've been with the Cats Protection League for over 20 years and seen cats thrown out to fend for themselves become feral in a very short space of time, reproducing totally wild offspring which will shred your hands even at 4 or 5 weeks old. Like a wild caught snake which can be tamed with patient handling, so can a feral kitten or cat be tamed. Takes a lot of patience (and often a lot of Elastoplast LOL) but it can be done. I know, I've done it and so have many in the CPL.

Domestic as opposed to tame. The way I think (and I'm only talking about me here) is that an animal that lives in a house alongside humans is a domestic animal. A tame animal can be a squirrel that lives in the trees outside my house but will come and take nuts from my hand. It is tame, but not domestic.

Experts. Now experts have so many times, in many things been proved completely wrong. For example, for generations scientists, marine-biologists etc. thought that the Great White Shark was a solitary creature. With the ability to tag these animals with electronic transmitters, they've now found that far from being solitary animals, these sharks work as a team and have a very sophisticated communication system, so the theories that these experts have so long held, that they are 100% correct, that they can't be wrong has been turned upside down on its head.

I remain open minded but observe and learn my snakes. Snakes are becoming more and more popular as pets and as time goes on we will learn more and more about them and I do believe we might end up being quite surprised at them.

Whatever happens, I feel priviledged to be able to share my life and home with my snakes and hope in their own special way they feel the same. They are wonderful, beautiful, gentle fascinating animals that for too long have been badly maligned.

[frankykeno]

Well when it comes to cats I surely have to agree with you on that one Adam. I've seen my own two cats over the long years I had them go from typical lazy butt house cats that never knew a moment of hunger go into hunt & kill mode (with a little light torture mixed in just for fun)in a flat second. No mouse ever survived in our house. These cats had no need to hunt for hunger, it was purely instinct and that's just never been bred out of most of your typical house cats.

The cats that live in our forest are examples. Mom was obviously a pet prior to last summer. In the space of this year she's gone basically feral, had a least 2 litters of kittens that were born wild and will allow no human approach at all, even more skittish then momma cat has become.



~~Jo~~

[tigerlily]

I consider my bps wild. Seeing as how they are only one step removed from the wild, since both are CH. I think it's just in the nature of a bp to be docile and nonaggressive - for the most part. I figure when I can feed my snakes out of my hand, then it's no longer wild. I don't feel either of my snakes enjoy playing with me, but do tolerate my handling. This is just my opinion and it seems even the experts disagree with the whole domestication issue, so this issue is definitely not clear cut.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Dogs that are thrown out by heartless owners revert back to being what they are - pack animals.

Dogs are actually still pack animals when living inside a human home, the family they live with becomes their "pack". When thrown out, they exhibit the same behavior that they do inside the house, just with other dogs. Domestication doesn't break instinct. Wolves on the other hand live in packs in the wild, but if you were to bring one into a human home as an adult it would it would likely almost immediately attack every single person living in that household.

Don't mistake a domesticated animal surviving without human assistance as becoming un-domesticated. There are definite well defined lines of behavior between domesticated and wild animals. Their environment certainly has some influence, but in the end, domesticated animals have traits that their wild counter parts will never have.

Like it or not, ball pythons are non-social animals, domestication isn't really something that is possible for them at any point.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

i know camels are not wild atleast not dromedarys(i saw that on the Crocodile Hunter so i dont know if its completly true), and why would a scientist call a domestic cat wild if there scientific name is
Felis Domesticus?... DOMESTICUS!!! im not trying to be rude but that is what i think. if im wrong please explain. i dont want to start an argument, please.

Camels are not classified as "domestic" by any veterinary, biological, or zoological association that I could find.

As far as cats and their latin name, please don't confuse a name given to an animal 100+ years ago to the advances in the understanding of animal social behavior and evolution made in the last 50 years.

As Lady Python pointed out, science is constantly evolving ... my point of reference for the purpose of this discussion is what we understand today ... not yesterday and certainly not tomorrow.

-adam

[Lady Python]

Yes Adam, dogs are pack animals and do see their human family as a pack. Every time we take our German Shepherd out, and she's off the lead, she will "round us up". I sent Ian (my son) off to hide and took Sadie away from him. We only got about 100 yards further on when she did her "round up" bit, saw Ian was missing, went and found him and "herded" him back to me. She's a really good dog and very protective of us and also our house - as would-be burglars found out one night a couple of years ago. She saw them off. They obviously didn't know there was a burglar alarm with teeth behind the door



Mr~Python. Don't worry, I don't think any of us would argue about our different ways of thinking. Good natured debate/discussion is very informative and the different points of view put across from everyone is very interesting.

Despite our different points of view, we all have one thing in common - and that is a love of snakes

BTW one of our hatchling Cornsnakes (Charcoal Charlie) has just shed in the last half hour. He's a baby Anery and is looking beautiful. Will post pics of them later. Err, make that two baby Cornsnakes. Jet has just shed in the last few minutes - shed is still soft

I'm convinced our BPs love us. Otherwise, why are they always smiling at us. (I now it's the shape of their mouths but they always give the impression that they're smiling LOL).

[mr~python]

.

As far as cats and their latin name, please don't confuse a name given to an animal 100+ years ago to the advances in the understanding of animal social behavior and evolution made in the last 50 years.

As Lady Python pointed out, science is constantly evolving ... my point of reference for the purpose of this discussion is what we understand today ... not yesterday and certainly not tomorrow.

-adam

i dont believe in evolution but i do believe in morphation and creation

[mr~python]

thanks for correcting me on the camels, i wasnt sure about that cuz i saw it on croc hunter.