Comparable or no?

[stoaob3]

Yes, I am speaking of the BP's living conditions here.

I do not think it is fair to keep a snake in a tub with only a water bowl, and SOMETIMES a hide, all their life like most large scale breeders do is fair. I think thats the sad part about it. Sure they are called 'pet rocks', but that does not mean that they don't need any mental stimulation.

Surviving and thriving are two different things.

If anyone has actually looked at what ball pythons do in the wild .....you would kno that a tub and a water bowl is more than enough .

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[rufretic]

you try telling me brian from BHB reptiles and From SnakebitesTV doesn't have a passion and care about all the thousands of animals he and his crew care for.

Im not clear on your point, I'm saying I think he DOES have passion for his animals as well as most other large breeders. Just because they don't cuddle with each one every week does not mean they don't care, pythons are not like dogs, they have no need or care for our affection.

[KayLynn]

Keeping snakes in rack systems is in no way comparable to a puppy mill. You're providing a controlled, clean, beneficial habitat for your snake to keep it healthy. If you manage to do the same with vivs and tanks, that's fine too. There are stickies and advice for both everywhere. If either setup was truly so abhorrent, no one would be using them. The argument for one or the other is old and tired, and shouldn't matter as long as your animals are well cared for, whether you have one snake or one hundred.

I'm not sure if anyone here has seen the full scale of what a puppy mill actually is, but I've been to a few during rescues, and to imply that breeders who have a lot of snakes in rack systems because they run a business (or just keeping snakes in racks) is tantamount to running a puppy mill is rather insulting. As long as they are passionate about their animals, and the animals are thriving in the habs provided, let them run their business. If you feel otherwise, buy your animals from people who keep snakes to standards you approve of. Simple.

If you think Brian from BHB or Garrick at Royal Constrictor (or any other big name in bp breeding) don't have a favorite snake or five in their entire collections that they don't stop to handle and enjoy once in a while, I'd bet money against you. If you think they strictly started breeding for money's sake, I'd for sure bet against you.

I know there are breeders out there who are irresponsible and shouldn't own animals period, but that is why the consumer is free to choose who they do and do not patronize. There are jerks everywhere doing things they shouldn't. Avoid them.

/endrant

[dylan815]

Im not clear on your point, I'm saying I think he DOES have passion for his animals as well as most other large breeders. Just because they don't cuddle with each one every week does not mean they don't care, pythons are not like dogs, they have no need or care for our affection.

I guess I misunderstood your statement about large breeders.


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[rufretic]

I guess I misunderstood your statement about large breeders.


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I thought that might be the case but the way you worded it, I couldn't tell if you were just being sarcastic. It sounds like we are on the same side.

[zina10]

As for the arguments that zoo's eventually made a bigger effort to create more suitable environments for each species they display, well, every species has different needs. Some need more space, others less. Some need to be able to climb, run and swim, others just graze.

It is still a zoo. It DISPLAYS animals. You have to be able to see them, if you go to the zoo. So no matter how they adjust the habitats, they animals still need to be seen. Even the ones that prefer very, VERY much NOT to be seen.

Back when I started with Ball Pythons most were kept in glass tanks. Forget privacy. The more visibility, the better. Who would want a snake you never see? Forget hides. Forget darkened sides/tops. There may have been a bit of decoration in the middle, but the setups were still quite lacking. Some animals made it despite this. Many eventually were passed from home to home until passing away from lack of proper care and the resulting hunger strikes.

So perhaps keeping them in a "tub" setup is the actual progress that was done to provide more species appropriate setups. "Changes" in routine and setup can make Ball Pythons go off feed. Even a change in "decoration". Of course they check it out. It wasn't there before. I have learned that whenever Ball Pythons are very active, its usually not because they are bored or want a cuddle. Something is bothering them. Hunger. Stress. Wrong temps or humidity. Or the need to breed. I don't think they cruise around because they are bored and want a kitty ball to play with (yes, someone tried to tell me they need toys to play with for mental enrichment)

I agree with all that both methods "can" work if done right. But unless you do try both methods and have enough experience to really read those animals, you cannot say for sure that one is right and one is wrong.

I'm not saying that to sound superior. I'm saying that because I used to be in the "100% against tubs" camp. I used to keep them all in cages. Nice cages, too. (Neodesha). Until I started taking in rescues that were imports and quite sick. Or former pets that were neglected. Some were very ill, others "just" near death from starvation due to stress of some form or another. They needed to be strictly quarantined and they needed a LOT of care. They went into tubs to have utmost privacy and could be kept absolutely clean. That's when I realized how well they did, how much faster they seemed to turn around, how much better and quicker they ate. I moved them from the tubs to tanks once they were better and they went back to refusing food. And my cages were set up right, only the front "see through", plenty hides, sticks, greenery, whatnot. I know, those were the "hard" cases, but they really made me take another look at racks and do more research, instead of being so closed minded. I finally went with a rack for my animals and FOR THIS SPECIES I find a good rack with the correct husbandry a very good setup to have.

That said, there are many species I personally wouldn't dream of keeping in tubs. I have had snakes that were busy, and for whom it is natural to be out and about, climbing, watching and interacting. If you want a most interesting "nosy" snake, get a Russian Rat snake. The only snakes I ever had who actually watched intently what I was doing. Following my every move and coming to the edge of the door when wanting out. They would explore, not just look to get away to hide. The female would settle in the front of my hoodie, little head sticking out above the zipper, and just ride along while I was doing chores. They also climb and are busy. WONDERFUL display snakes. My boas, carpets and even GTP's also made great animals for display cages (well, not the brazilian boa, but the redtails)

I also enjoyed my Ball Pythons in Display cages. I have one now. But I would never, ever knock anyone keeping them in racks (the right way) or saying this was cruel. I find the opposite to be true.

So really...to each their own. As long as they have the correct husbandry who cares if some people put cat toys into the cage or like to imagine the snake loves to cuddle with them. As long as the snake has its basic needs met and is healthy and eating, whatever floats someones boat, whether cage or tub.


edited to say: I agree with KayLynn. It is insulting to compare large scale snake breeders with a puppy mill. And everyone that has seen a puppymill, smelled it, touched and rescued those animals, will agree. I'm sure there are bad keepers, wanne be snake breeders who end up neglecting their animals, leaving them sitting in filth. But they quickly fail. Snakes need a certain husbandry in order live, eat and reproduce. The margin for error is much smaller. Unfortunately with dogs, you can leave them to freeze, to almost starve, to get overheated and to sit in their filth, and they will still breed, and they will still live. It takes a lot more to kill a dog through neglect, then a snake.

[dylan815]

Im not clear on your point, I'm saying I think he DOES have passion for his animals as well as most other large breeders. Just because they don't cuddle with each one every week does not mean they don't care, pythons are not like dogs, they have no need or care for our affection.

I guess I misunderstood your statement about large breeders.


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[the_rotten1]

My feelings and this may diverge off topic, is that if you are not a commercial breeder, why not offer your snake the best possible environment for them over one that is simple to maintain for you? If it does not negatively impact their welfare including heat and humidity, why would room to explore, enrichment items, and a larger space not be a benefit?

Because sometimes larger spaces do negatively impact an animal's welfare. This is probably more true for ball pythons than other types of snake, but some animals just won't feel comfortable in larger enclosures no matter how many nice, comfy hides and pretty decorations you put in them. There's also the fact that it costs time and money to maintain a larger enclosure with cage furniture and decorations, but there's no indication that it's beneficial to the animal. Why make all that effort when there's no proof it helps?

I will say that some snakes do better in tanks. My rosys in particular seem to need the lower humidity a screen top provides. My female hognose spends a lot of time roaming her tank and she does just fine. But as far as ball pythons go, I see no discernible difference between the health and happiness of the one I keep in a big glass terrarium and the ones I keep in racks. If anything, the ones in racks typically fare better. It provides the security necessary to get stubborn eaters to feed and my rack setup is simple enough that it's easy to detect, prevent, and cure most illnesses and parasites.

I keep most of my BPs in racks because it's better for them.

I know when I add a new item to my enclosure, my snake is curious and will explore it for the next week or so. I know that my snake does love to climb and bask in the open at night as well as find a safe spot to hide during the day. I don't feel I am anthropomorphizing my snake or placing non reptilian husbandry needs on him...

You say you're not anthropomorphizing your snake, but how do you know for sure that your snake is exploring because it enjoys it's surroundings? Yes, ball pythons are curious creatures, and probably more intelligent than people let on, but that doesn't mean they enjoy being out in the open and looking at new things. They explore to familiarize themselves with their surroundings, so if anything bad happens they'll know where to hide.

I rely on my snakes' behavior to tell me how they're doing. I can tell when they're thriving or when they're not. But I can't tell how they feel, and neither can you. When you say your snake "loves to climb" that's an inference. You can't read his mind or know what he's thinking. I have a feeling that if we both observed the same snake at the same time we'd both come to different conclusions. If you take your snake out and he slithers freely over your body and onto your furniture you may believe that he's enjoying the change in scenery. When my snakes do that I think "Oh, he's looking for a place to hide. He must feel uncomfortable."

Those are both opinions. And unless we ever find a way to scan a BP's brain and read it's thoughts I doubt we'll ever know for sure what a snake is thinking. But I guarantee you that eventually any wandering BP will find a place where it feels safe and curl up and hide there.

Ultimately, I don't put much stock in the opinions of people who are against something they're never tried. There are people who've never owned snakes that talk about how awful they are, but how would they know? There are also people who say it's unethical to breed the spider morph, even though they've never owned one and never will. And there sure are a lot of people who love their big, fancy enclosures. You seem to think that they're the only way to go. Have you ever tried a rack?