Comparable or no?

[rufretic]

They can not be compared simply because dogs have completely different needs than ball pythons. A puppy mill is abusive to dogs mentally and physically even if they are kept clean because dogs have so many more needs that need to be met other than water and a clean cage. Where as ball pythons need just exactly that, a clean, dark, small space with fresh water. These conditions are what actually keep these animals stress free and healthy. So a rack type setup doesn't only meet their needs but it is actually what works best for ball pythons and I say this with experience in anything from a rack with small tubs all the way to a 8' vision cage. Ball pythons just prefer small dark hiding places. The only time they come out from hiding in a large cage is because they are looking for food, to mate or because some other factor is stressing them and they are trying to escape. In small tubs they are in a small secure hiding spot that they would actually be looking for if they are in a larger area. They actually want to be in their tubs, all 30+ of mine will go straight for it as soon as they smell it, they actually like their small tubs because it makes them feel secure. Ball pythons don't need or want large space, socialization or human affection. Dogs pretty much need the opposite so what is inadequate living conditions for a dog can be the perfect living conditions for a ball python.

[SDA]

Large scale breeders like Brain Barczyk are not the same like the large volume reptile distributors that supply to petco and petsmart. The first has a large volume of snakes that are well taken care of and not let to basically rot while the latter simply gets as many as they can and shoves them in horrendous conditions and does not care if they die because to them they are simply a commodity with an acceptable loss rate.

So there has to be a distinction between the two or you just end up lumping everyone together and that then invalidates anyone's argument against snake breeding.

[zina10]

I think that has been discussed ad naseum.

While BP in the wild do NOT spend all their time in ONE tiny little hole, they spend a large majority of their time in a hole. They are known to wait on a prey item to come and find them. Eventually they have to defecate/urinate which will make their hide spot unsuitable. Because prey animals will not go near it, knowing what inhabits it.

So they find a new hole.

During breeding season the males travel to find a female.

I have talked to some people that actually been in those areas (many years ago) and they said the snakes were best found during breeding season or by checking hide spots they prefer.

Ball Pythons are picky snakes. They are snakes that do not do well (hunger strikes) if they do not feel safe. They often choose safety over all else, even the need to eat. That's why it often doesn't work to put a rodent in a cage in the middle of a room to get a escaped Ball Python to show itself. It will hunker down in some tiny little hole.

So then there are the people that are 100% pro tub and nothing else, and the people that are 100% pro tank and nothing else. I find both stances ridiculous.

A cage can be made to work. If you keep the animals needs in mind. A tub can work wonderfully as well. I've used both and I pay CLOSE attention to my animals well being. I also rescued many BP's way back in the day, some imports that were quite sickly. I've also used to own a large variety of other snake species.

I find that BP's do exceptionally well in a tub setup. (IF DONE RIGHT) Far less feeding problems and calmer animals. Yes, they tend to be more "active" in tanks, but that is not always a good thing. We also need to be careful not to project human (or even compl. different, social animals) emotions and needs onto these snakes. Basically, the proof is in the pudding. Unhappy BP's don't do well. They don't eat well. To say they just "exist" doesn't do them justice. You can see when an animal thrives and looks exceptionally well.

All that said, I do still own a display cage and I LOVE the way it looks and I LOVE to see the snake. I strongly believe that there are other snake species that do much better in a display cage rather then a Ball Python. But Ball Pythons is what I keep so I have one in a Display cage. Set up the right way.

Both ways can work. Both ways can be done wrong.

Arguing that either one or the other is "terrible" and abuses the snakes is ridiculous and presumptuous, imho.

My BP's that reside in the tubs get plenty of "out" time to stretch and move about. However, I can clearly see that they are always quite happy just to go back to their safe space. I do not believe it is a species that needs mental stimulation or entertainment.

[PythonBabes]

I don't see how this thread just turned against me, for some reason? All I did was ask for opinions on the matter, I am not arguing for either side. I did state that I was neutral on the matter so...

I am not anti-tub, then I would be a hypocrite, because my ball python is kept in a tub. But does he only have just a water bowl and substrate in there? No, he has three hides, multiple rocks, moss, artificial leaves, and branches to climb, yes all of that in one tub!

And I get that some breeders have to be time and cost efficient, but that still doesn't make them doing the bare minimum for their snakes ok.

[zina10]

The thread has not turned against any one person that I can see?

Its a discussion of "pro and con" and about the possibility of comparing puppy mills and snake breeding facilities.

Opinions vary.

You yourself say that the "bare minimum" is not ok. That in order to keep a snake in a tub it should have rocks, leaves, wood to climb on. That is an opinion. Some agree, some do not. Thus is the nature of an online discussion

[Godzilla78]

My oldest and tamest male likes to roam around and climb and such, A LOT, except when he just ate or is shedding. I attribute this to he is seeking a female...because he didn't do this until he became an adult. So I think he is perfectly happy in his enclosure, UNLESS he is HORNY! lol. Which he is mostly these days. He is in with his girlfriend right now, and he stopped roaming.

I used to think that they needed space, but I now agree that they are content in a tub, and only want to roam around if they are lacking something such as mate, food, water, place to urinate.. etc. Since we as keepers provide them with all this, they really don't need to roam much. I let them out to exercise sometimes, but most of them just end up hiding immediately anyway. The males seem a little more inquisitive to explore their surroundings.

[Godzilla78]

They are the perfect breeding animal since they are naturally content in confined spaces. At first I was afraid to get more than one, because I thought I would have to spend a fortune in glass terrariums and heaters... then I finally discovered that a rack system is not cruel or weird in any way.

[dadofsix]

I suspect that the person who may the statement that has generated all these responses, was referring to the "mind-set" of the breeder and not the specific conditions that the animals find themselves in -- though these conditions are often spawned by that mind-set.

It boils down to how you feel about these creatures. Are they beautiful and fascinating creatures deserving of the time and effort we put into sharing our existence with them? Or, are they simply "things" in which one can make a profit by with little or no personal sacrifice made to accomplish that goal?

Peace

[zina10]

Let us not forget that it is thanks to the larger scale breeders (not mills) that we now have captive bred Ball Pythons widely available. Which has cut down on the import from Africa. You want to see some misery for those animals? That was it!!!


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[PythonBabes]

I suspect that the person who may the statement that has generated all these responses, was referring to the "mind-set" of the breeder and not the specific conditions that the animals find themselves in -- though these conditions are often spawned by that mind-set.

It boils down to how you feel about these creatures. Are they beautiful and fascinating creatures deserving of the time and effort we put into sharing our existence with them? Or, are they simply "things" in which one can make a profit by with little or no personal sacrifice made to accomplish that goal?

Peace

Exactly! Everytime I watch a video from a large scale breeder and they pull out a snake do I hear 'this snake is so sweet and has a great personality, etc etc'?

No, I hear 'Look how cool this is, look how many genes it has, its a great eater so hopefully next year I can get some babies from it'.

I just don't think large scale breeders really care about their animals the same way a hobbyist does.