Opinions On Breeding Male Normal BCI (Aberrant) From A Business Standpoint?

[chip07]

@chip07 - Grrr! Damn you for reminding me about the Eclipse! lol I'm never going to have any money again, am I? When I originally started researching Boa mutations and deciding which ones would be my favorites to work with the Eclipse was my very first choice! I got sidetracked with Moonglows and sorta forgot about them. Now, I am rethinking my plans again... Personally, I really like the Motleys, but if i'm going to go through the time and expense of raising up a Motley it would be much more worthwhile in the long run to be growing up a Leopard (which, I also like a lot) as well instead of planning on just putting her with a normal. Maybe I need to come to terms with just keeping my normal boy as a pet... The Eclipse is indeed just a Motley x Leopard, right? I'm guessing there is only a very small chance of getting an Eclipse, though, right? Wouldn't most of the offspring be Motley Het Leopards?

If it's a motleyxleopard pairing they would all be het leopards no visual eclipse. If the motley is het leopard you would get visual eclipse from the pairing. My Motley is a PH Leopard for example. She was only 125 I think it was so I couldn't pass it up. I have no clue if she will prove out or not but I think it would be fun to pair her with my hypo PH leopard male. Bit of a surprise pairing that could give me an eclipse or nothing. I have a Albino Het Leopard male and Hypo dh leopard Albino female for definite leopards in the future. And everyone will be ready around the same time.

If you want to pair him just to do so then that will always be your choice. I wouldn't make it a habit of pairing just any normal up of course but in the end that's always up to you. I would never pair my normal female simply because I don't think she's breeding quality and she has too much sentimental value to risk breeding personally. She's my first boa that I got when I was 13 years old. She's been with me half my life now so I don't really want to risk the chance something goes wrong.

I love the hypos and high quality normals (pastels). My first pairing will be a Hypo x EBV Poss Super Hypo Jungle pairing not anything amazingly high quality but they should produce colorful babies and may just surprise me

I have a new Summit Pastel Poss Jungle Het VPI female that I will probably be spending a lot of money on a male for in the next few years. I was thinking visual Hytec VPI from PP or Redrum lines for her or something along those lines. She's a 2017 so I have awhile to decide. The breeder I was thinking of has a lot of males that I loved but definitely don't have the money for right now.

[snakequeen74]

Im feeling like the motley gene is getting picked on now since I said the same thing lol. I only have the one motley since I want an eclipse.

I just prefer Arabesque. It's nothing against the gene itself.
There are quite a few Pattern mutations I don't care for.

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[snakequeen74]

I'm really sorry but this is bothering me... boas are live-bearers.

Glad someone else caught that.

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[Aedryan Methyus]

If it's a motleyxleopard pairing they would all be het leopards no visual eclipse. If the motley is het leopard you would get visual eclipse from the pairing.

So, just to be clear, to get a visual Eclipse the pairing would have to be Motley Het Leopard x Leopard, right? What are the odds for Eclipse offspring? The rest of the offspring would be Motley 50% Het Leopards and Normal 50% Het Leopards, right? Is there any other pairing that would increase the odds of getting visual Eclipse offspring or is that the only way?

[chip07]

So, just to be clear, to get a visual Eclipse the pairing would have to be Motley Het Leopard x Leopard, right? What are the odds for Eclipse offspring? The rest of the offspring would be Motley 50% Het Leopards and Normal 50% Het Leopards, right? Is there any other pairing that would increase the odds of getting visual Eclipse offspring or is that the only way?

Motley Het Leopard x Leopard = 1/4 Eclipse, 1/4 Motley Het Leopard, 1/4 Leopard, 1/4 Het Leopard

Motley Het Leopard x Het Leopard = 1/8 Eclipse, 1/8 Leopard, 3/8 Motley 66% PH Leopard, 3/8 66% PH Leopard

Eclipse x Leopard = 1/2 Eclipse, 1/2 Leopard

Eclipse x Het Leopard = 1/4 Eclipse, 1/4 Motley Het Leopard, 1/4 Leopard, 1/4 Het Leopard

Anything with one visual Leopard will give you 100% hets. So either have one visual Leopard or two to increase the odds of an eclipse.

[Aedryan Methyus]

Awesome! Thanks for the info! Well... *sigh* Now, I know what my next 2 purchases will be after I get the 3 snakes paid off that i'm paying on right now... lol Do you know anyone who has Motley 100% Het Leopards available? I searched around a bit earlier and wasn't able to find any...

[chip07]

Lance Hansen just had a litter earlier this month. I bought my motley 66% Het Leopard from Fred Jaks not sure if he will have anything.

[CloudtheBoa]

Breeding kills animals, so before breeding you need to be aware of that and be ready to lose any animals you breed. Even males can become injured or killed in any number of ways, but females are especially in danger of injury or death because they're gravid. Overfeeding can complicate things even further, so if you haven't been overly strict in your feeding regimen, the female could be put into danger when bred. Fatty liver disease is several times more likely in a gravid female, as the stress and time off of food can aggravate the condition.


Do you have money for vet bills in the case something goes wrong? Do you have the budget to spend potential thousands in vet costs on each individual snake in the case something goes wrong with the breeding, any of the babies need health care, etc.? Males can bust hemipenes, which will oftentimes leave them as useless breeders since their dominant side is usually the side affected. Males can become crushed or otherwise attacked by the female. Females can become eggbound, or otherwise become unhealthy from her gravidity. Babies can come out with conditions like hardened yolks, infected eyes (fairly common in albino boas), or other random ailments. These snakes will need veterinary care. The more animals you add to your collection, the higher the chances are that you'll encounter a health issue or a parasite infestation. Are you financially ready to deal with this?


Aberrant normals are quite common in boas, so you're not looking to make a lot of money from a normal breeding. Even if your female has a codom morph, your babies are still not going to be worth much. Unless they've been bred for quality over generations, the average hypo runs about $100-175 on average. These morphs are just so common, and most people aren't putting in the work to make the morph better, instead churning out low-quality ugly offspring (as ugly as a boa could ever be anyway).


If you plan on making breeding a full time venture of your's, then I'm sure you've already weighed these options.


You don't necessarily have to breed the poss super ghost to a normal to prove her out, as long as the male doesn't have hypo in him you'll be able to tell.




As far as the rat breeding, I used to breed my rats outside in a lean-to shed without any sort of heating. They bred and survived just fine. I never lost a litter or a rat to the cold, and never had any illnesses. The key was offering plenty of bedding and keeping them out of the wind. I do also live in NC, so it's *usually* not any colder than 10-20F during the winter, but we did have one winter of at least -10F, and the rats powered right on through it. Not sure if that is average for rats or not, or how advisable it is just my experience with them. I'm not sure if rats kept in the stereotypical breeding racks will have the resources to allow them to survive that. I had 3 rats to a 6' enclosure with 8" of bedding, so that could have given them an advantage.


I also have 12 snakes, and their yearly cost isn't really very high for feeding. If I bought all of the year's food at once I'm looking at about $380 for everyone (or $31.67/month), but I normally buy 6-8 month's worth of food at a time for right around $300. This is ordering bulk on websites like Big Cheese or Perfect Prey. I do also keep my snakes' prey sizes small and space out feedings, so I'm not feeding as much food as most other keepers. I don't have a single snake eating weekly right now, most are eating every 2-3 weeks, and will be eating monthly as adults.




I'm not sure why you think substrate will impact a snake's ability to explore, unless you're housing your snakes in enclosures that are too short to be ethical. With 2'+ height enclosures a few inches of substrate isn't going to make a difference in the snake's available space. As far as cleaning, just pick up urates/feces and any surrounding bedding and that should get most or all of it, absorbent beddings should keep everything from spreading too much. With the moss, I doubt the humidity would last more than a day with a lot of airflow.

[Aedryan Methyus]

Breeding kills animals, so before breeding you need to be aware of that and be ready to lose any animals you breed. Even males can become injured or killed in any number of ways, but females are especially in danger of injury or death because they're gravid. Overfeeding can complicate things even further, so if you haven't been overly strict in your feeding regimen, the female could be put into danger when bred. Fatty liver disease is several times more likely in a gravid female, as the stress and time off of food can aggravate the condition.

Do you have money for vet bills in the case something goes wrong? Do you have the budget to spend potential thousands in vet costs on each individual snake in the case something goes wrong with the breeding, any of the babies need health care, etc.? Males can bust hemipenes, which will oftentimes leave them as useless breeders since their dominant side is usually the side affected. Males can become crushed or otherwise attacked by the female. Females can become eggbound, or otherwise become unhealthy from her gravidity. Babies can come out with conditions like hardened yolks, infected eyes (fairly common in albino boas), or other random ailments. These snakes will need veterinary care. The more animals you add to your collection, the higher the chances are that you'll encounter a health issue or a parasite infestation. Are you financially ready to deal with this?

I am quite aware of all this and I am just as horrified by the thought of all of these potential disasters (and others) as anyone. I also realize that Boas are especially at risk for breeding complications. I love and adore each and every one of my snakes dearly and they get just as good of care as anyone could possibly provide for them in captivity. I even hold and spend time with every one of them almost every day, so they can stretch out and get a little exercise and also to keep them used to being handled. They are first and foremost, my babies. But, secondly, they are investments. I didn't jump into this venture blindly...

Aberrant normals are quite common in boas, so you're not looking to make a lot of money from a normal breeding. Even if your female has a codom morph, your babies are still not going to be worth much. Unless they've been bred for quality over generations, the average hypo runs about $100-175 on average. These morphs are just so common, and most people aren't putting in the work to make the morph better, instead churning out low-quality ugly offspring (as ugly as a boa could ever be anyway).

If you plan on making breeding a full time venture of your's, then I'm sure you've already weighed these options

Exactly... That was the whole point of this post. I have been on the fence about whether to plan on ever breeding this boy or just coming to terms with the likelihood that he may just remain a beloved pet. The obvious answer to me was to only breed normals with Super gene animals. But, if I were to ever breed him to a non-super gene animal, I think a Hypo Motley would be an excellent choice. No, neither Hypos, Motleys or Hypo Motleys are worth all that much money, but they are indeed all very popular and affordable. And, as we have discussed, from a business standpoint, it is a wise idea to have lower end (cheaper) animals available for average everyday pet snake buyers. How many of those type of buyers are going to be willing to buy a $350.00 - $40,000.00 pet snake for their 12 year old children?

At this time, my goal is simply for this to become a sideline business that is as profitable as possible (obviously) without going too big. I very well may try to make breeding a full time venture in my elder years at some point if I ever get too old to perform professionally (at the level I do now, at least). That was very much part of my reason for pursuing all of this. I think this is something that I would be very happy and content doing when i'm old and decrepit someday (Aaargh! ) and I believe it could become at least somewhat lucrative. I am and always will be an entrepreneur and I have to be passionate about whatever I am doing. Hence; Why I haven't had a "JOB" job in over 17 years... At this point, I don't really want my personal collection to grow to more than maybe 20 - 30 snakes (including the foreseeable holdbacks I am shooting for in my distant and not so distant future). But, the further I get into this the more I realize how difficult it might become to keep my collection that small. That will depend on how well I am able to move snakes and whether or not I decide to take it to the next level, I guess. Right now, I sorta feel like I showed up late for the game and i'm sorta in a race against time to get some good projects moving along. I am 47 years old and due to the fact that the process takes so long to grow these animals up to sexual maturity (especially Boas) I am trying to get as many desirable pairs in my collection and growing as possible. I mean, I will already be 50 or 51 years old by the time I can even attempt to breed my little Ghost girl and at least one other pair of Boas I see myself acquiring soon...

As far as the rat breeding, I used to breed my rats outside in a lean-to shed without any sort of heating. They bred and survived just fine. I never lost a litter or a rat to the cold, and never had any illnesses. The key was offering plenty of bedding and keeping them out of the wind. I do also live in NC, so it's *usually* not any colder than 10-20F during the winter, but we did have one winter of at least -10F, and the rats powered right on through it. Not sure if that is average for rats or not, or how advisable it is just my experience with them. I'm not sure if rats kept in the stereotypical breeding racks will have the resources to allow them to survive that. I had 3 rats to a 6' enclosure with 8" of bedding, so that could have given them an advantage.

Wow... No kidding??? That is very interesting to hear! I live in Pittsburgh, PA and between November and April the average low temperatures range from 21 - 40 degrees. The high temperatures during those months range from 36 - 63 degrees. Judging by your experience, it sounds like perhaps the rats would probably do fine in one of my garages, yeah? I have read elsewhere on this forum that you will see a drop in production with temperatures below 55 and above 78 and that ideal temperatures are low to mid 70's. What has your experience been with that?

I also have 12 snakes, and their yearly cost isn't really very high for feeding. If I bought all of the year's food at once I'm looking at about $380 for everyone (or $31.67/month), but I normally buy 6-8 month's worth of food at a time for right around $300. This is ordering bulk on websites like Big Cheese or Perfect Prey. I do also keep my snakes' prey sizes small and space out feedings, so I'm not feeding as much food as most other keepers. I don't have a single snake eating weekly right now, most are eating every 2-3 weeks, and will be eating monthly as adults.

I haven't ever broken down and calculated my actual feeding costs as of yet. I would estimate it's somewhere between $40.00 and $60.00 every 2 months or something, though. At this point all of my snakes are feeding on "appropriate size" rats every 7 days. I am keeping a very close eye on them (especially my Bloods and Short Tails) and if the shape of their bodies start to look fatter than what that particular species ideal body shape should look like I will cut the feedings back as needed. Does that seem reasonable to you?

I'm not sure why you think substrate will impact a snake's ability to explore, unless you're housing your snakes in enclosures that are too short to be ethical. With 2'+ height enclosures a few inches of substrate isn't going to make a difference in the snake's available space. As far as cleaning, just pick up urates/feces and any surrounding bedding and that should get most or all of it, absorbent beddings should keep everything from spreading too much. With the moss, I doubt the humidity would last more than a day with a lot of airflow.

At this stage of growth, all of my snakes are still in 28 qt. - 41 qt. racks (my adult Ball Pythons will remain in 41 qt. racks). Each rack only has about 5 3/4" of headroom for the snakes. It doesn't take much calculating to see how little headroom "a few inches" of substrate is going to leave the snakes. As for the future, I will be building larger 4' - 6' individual enclosures as needed. Even then, I highly doubt that I will ever use substrate. I don't want to be pulling substrate out all over my floor every time I pull a snake out and I do feel that it is impossible to ever get all of the urine and bacteria out of the substrate without completely replacing it every time and that just isn't feasible. I have been considering the possibility of experimenting with artificial grass. I don't know how many cleanings it would stand up to, but otherwise, I think it would be ideal. Have any of you ever tried it?

Thanks so much for taking the time to share all of your knowledge and experience with me, Cloud. I really appreciate it! >8>)

[CloudtheBoa]

I am quite aware of all this and I am just as horrified by the thought of all of these potential disasters (and others) as anyone. I also realize that Boas are especially at risk for breeding complications. I love and adore each and every one of my snakes dearly and they get just as good of care as anyone could possibly provide for them in captivity. I even hold and spend time with every one of them almost every day, so they can stretch out and get a little exercise and also to keep them used to being handled. They are first and foremost, my babies. But, secondly, they are investments. I didn't jump into this venture blindly...



Exactly... That was the whole point of this post. I have been on the fence about whether to plan on ever breeding this boy or just coming to terms with the likelihood that he may just remain a beloved pet. The obvious answer to me was to only breed normals with Super gene animals. But, if I were to ever breed him to a non-super gene animal, I think a Hypo Motley would be an excellent choice. No, neither Hypos, Motleys or Hypo Motleys are worth all that much money, but they are indeed all very popular and affordable. And, as we have discussed, from a business standpoint, it is a wise idea to have lower end (cheaper) animals available for average everyday pet snake buyers. How many of those type of buyers are going to be willing to buy a $350.00 - $40,000.00 pet snake for their 12 year old children?

At this time, my goal is simply for this to become a sideline business that is as profitable as possible (obviously) without going too big. I very well may try to make breeding a full time venture in my elder years at some point if I ever get too old to perform professionally (at the level I do now, at least). That was very much part of my reason for pursuing all of this. I think this is something that I would be very happy and content doing when i'm old and decrepit someday (Aaargh! ) and I believe it could become at least somewhat lucrative. I am and always will be an entrepreneur and I have to be passionate about whatever I am doing. Hence; Why I haven't had a "JOB" job in over 17 years... At this point, I don't really want my personal collection to grow to more than maybe 20 - 30 snakes (including the foreseeable holdbacks I am shooting for in my distant and not so distant future). But, the further I get into this the more I realize how difficult it might become to keep my collection that small. That will depend on how well I am able to move snakes and whether or not I decide to take it to the next level, I guess. Right now, I sorta feel like I showed up late for the game and i'm sorta in a race against time to get some good projects moving along. I am 47 years old and due to the fact that the process takes so long to grow these animals up to sexual maturity (especially Boas) I am trying to get as many desirable pairs in my collection and growing as possible. I mean, I will already be 50 or 51 years old by the time I can even attempt to breed my little Ghost girl and at least one other pair of Boas I see myself acquiring soon...



Wow... No kidding??? That is very interesting to hear! I live in Pittsburgh, PA and between November and April the average low temperatures range from 21 - 40 degrees. The high temperatures during those months range from 36 - 63 degrees. Judging by your experience, it sounds like perhaps the rats would probably do fine in one of my garages, yeah? I have read elsewhere on this forum that you will see a drop in production with temperatures below 55 and above 78 and that ideal temperatures are low to mid 70's. What has your experience been with that?



I haven't ever broken down and calculated my actual feeding costs as of yet. I would estimate it's somewhere between $40.00 and $60.00 every 2 months or something, though. At this point all of my snakes are feeding on "appropriate size" rats every 7 days. I am keeping a very close eye on them (especially my Bloods and Short Tails) and if the shape of their bodies start to look fatter than what that particular species ideal body shape should look like I will cut the feedings back as needed. Does that seem reasonable to you?



At this stage of growth, all of my snakes are still in 28 qt. - 41 qt. racks (my adult Ball Pythons will remain in 41 qt. racks). Each rack only has about 5 3/4" of headroom for the snakes. It doesn't take much calculating to see how little headroom "a few inches" of substrate is going to leave the snakes. As for the future, I will be building larger 4' - 6' individual enclosures as needed. Even then, I highly doubt that I will ever use substrate. I don't want to be pulling substrate out all over my floor every time I pull a snake out and I do feel that it is impossible to ever get all of the urine and bacteria out of the substrate without completely replacing it every time and that just isn't feasible. I have been considering the possibility of experimenting with artificial grass. I don't know how many cleanings it would stand up to, but otherwise, I think it would be ideal. Have any of you ever tried it?

Thanks so much for taking the time to share all of your knowledge and experience with me, Cloud. I really appreciate it! >8>)

Glad to hear you've given some thought. That spiel is generally just the first thing I think of when someone mentions getting into breeding, as many folks don't think about it. But since you have, that's a great first step.

From what I've seen (and I'm not actually heavily into the selling market so I may be way off), boas up to about $500-600 don't generally have problems getting sold, even by the "average Joe." A lot of people are willing to pay for quality, even if they don't have plans to breed - after all have you seen the absolute ludicrous prices pet stores charge for their animals?! $120-160 for a normal boa, $800-1,000 for an average quality pied ball python...$300 for a BRB...it's mind-boggling. And those ones generally are low-quality cast-offs from breeders or turn ins from keepers who couldn't handle them anymore. Doesn't mean you won't have a higher sell volume with cheaper snakes, of course. Other breeders also do buy out litters pretty easily, especially if you have lineages in high demand or are in the right circles.

Yes, that's just my experience. Nothing more than plenty of bedding and some shelter and they did fine. Raised 3 generations of rats in this way. I would say that temperature range sounds fine if you're keeping them inside. Much warmer than that, and they start to get lethargic or overheated, I tended to give them frozen water bottles and cucumbers to munch on as well as an extra water bottle to help out during hot days. Luckily the structure I kept them in generally stayed comfortably cool even on a hot summer day.

Weekly should be fine depending on the species, but I generally start my boas out eating every 10-14 days. At a year, they go no more often than 14 days, and by 2 years old they're eating every 3 weeks. At 3+ they get fed every 4-6 weeks. I also feed my 1.5-2 year olds monthly over the winter (a period of 3-4 months), and I begin completely fasting them or feeding them half as often over the winter at 2.5-3 years old.

I've never tried artificial grass, no. I would assume it would need complete bedding changes every time it was soiled, though, as I don't see cleaning it to be a feasible task. For the particulate bedding, I don't think a boa would create enough liquid to fill up the entirety of the bedding in a 4'-6' enclosure. lol I at most pick up the bedding surrounding any feces/urates out to 4". EcoEarth is quite absorbent. If you ever let it dry and make it to the bedding before a fresh dropping dries out, you'll notice the liquid doesn't travel far at all.