Breeding Standards

[JodanOrNoDan]

It goes back to finding a consensus that's trusted. Who do you ask to be on the this founding committee? You'd want people that hobbyists and breeders will buy in to - people's whose opinions they trust - or you'll never get anyone to follow the standards that are set.

Step one - identify your committee. Step two - get them to agree to a standard.

Good luck with that. I just don't see it happening.

Definitely questions to be answered. As to it happening or not, you may be right or maybe not. I have always tried to do things others say cannot be done. I have been lucky enough to have come out in good shape with most of these endeavors. No pain no gain. At the end of the day experience is valuable, even bad experience.

[Dave Green]

Rarity is almost always worth more money and is in its own category. If I ever produced a two headed snake I would be on the phone to BHB in about two seconds because I have no doubt Brian would want it. A two headed snake holds no value for me but it is rare and odd. That in itself is enough to make someone pay big money for it.

As to your famous dinker.... On that day you were the smartest and luckiest guy in the room.

I used exaggerated examples of course but we all have different tastes and likes. I've put snakes up for sale where I thought one was nicer than the other and I'm often surprised by which one buyers want. Standards are tough.

I'd like to think it was luck, karma and genius lol. Probably in that order.

[Eric Alan]

i'd like to think it was luck, karma and genius lol. Probably in that order.

lol!!!

[ladywhipple02]

I have always tried to do things others say cannot be done. I have been lucky enough to have come out in good shape with most of these endeavors..

As we all have. Good luck in your quest

[JodanOrNoDan]

Huh?

There it is. This is why at the very core you and I are different. I live in a world with incredible amounts of color, where you seem to live a very black and white existance. There is a time and place for right and wrong, but to compare differing opinions of percieved beauty to anarchy because of those opinions is beyond my comprehension.

That's a very noble cause and I commend you for it.

LOL, snake's name is snow white. My daughters are young and they tell me the snakes are going on a date when I put them in a tub together. I don't want to tell them the snake is too ugly to breed.

And yes, I am ex military, I do systems research and development for a living which is a fancy way of saying I am a software engineer that solves complex problems, so yeah, most of my life is pretty black and white. But I also listen to and play music. I like blues and can tell you good from bad. I can also listen to genres I hate and tell you good from bad. If music is not a taste thing I don't know what is. Even though it is art, it is rated, and there are "formulas" for creating things people would theoretically like.

[Eric Alan]

LOL, snake's name is snow white. My daughters are young and they tell me the snakes are going on a date when I put them in a tub together. I don't want to tell them the snake is too ugly to breed.

But not "too ugly" for her. She still sees him as beautiful (as evidence by her questions) and not one bit of research you have done has changed that fact.

And yes, I am ex military, I do systems research and development for a living which is a fancy way of saying I am a software engineer that solves complex problems, so yeah, most of my life is pretty black and white. But I also listen to and play music. I like blues and can tell you good from bad. I can also listen to genres I hate and tell you good from bad. If music is not a taste thing I don't know what is. Even though it is art, it is rated, and there are "formulas" for creating things people would theoretically like.

I never want to assume, but I had a feeling. To your point about music, I would argue that music is reviewed, not rated (except for explicit content by nervous parents!). I don't know of any rating system that would concretely define the best blues songs ever written (in THIS order) without there being a lot of differing opinions. To your point about that formula, I heard about that a few years ago. If I remember correctly, it was only about 60% accurate in determining hits and that the formula was geographically and era-biased. That says nothing more to me than 60% of record execs have a lowest-common-denominator formula in mind for what they think we want to listen to. Is 60% accurate good enough for a systems guy like yourself?

[Unknown Subscriber]

Music that's a comparison I can understand. And seems to fit better with all the differences in the morphs. I can see both sides of the coin now. Just because the song is metal and I like metal does not mean I like all metal. So of you look at the morphs as you would music then no there really is no way to put a quality label on it. I mean how much of the music played on the radio is utter crap? But many people must like it or it wouldn't be played. The same can go for morphs. Tho it would be nice to have something that did explain what your typical every day version of each is supposed to look like. Then there would bee a base line for each morph and one can better enjoy the artistic differences of each individual snake.

[JodanOrNoDan]

Eric, you seem like a good guy. We would probably get along in the real world. Your arguments are sound even if I don't necessarily agree with them. I have a good friend I go on long car trips to kendo tournaments. We have nothing in common other than kendo (another black and white thing). We have heated discussions every trip but they are always productive. Each of us walks away at least understanding the others viewpoints.

I think I may have created a little confusion, some of it intentional some not, so I am going to clarify a little. What I am proposing is not exactly what we are discussing. I first started thinking about this when I started playing around with writing some AI software which started out as something to pick up cavities on x-rays. I realized that the same code with a little tweaking might be able to distinguish ball python morphs. It is a silly project but it makes my brain work hard. I had to make the computer learn how to distinguish one morph from the other. In order to do that I first had to tell it the things to look for. Things like relative brightness, the number and saturation of colors, sharpness of borders, eye color etc. The software is learning and getting better the more I use it. My first test case was mojave vs phantom. The program is about 90% accurate on these two so far. I am trying to knock this thing out before my highway to normal clutch pops out. I am praying that the software can learn to distinguish gravel and yellowbelly because I and no one else I have heard of can do it with their eyes. The monetary reasoning for wanting to do this I am sure is clear.

In this process I realized I was also indirectly creating a rating system for particular morphs. I had to be able to show the computer acceptable ranges from my idea of perfect to just barely there. Right now I do not envision the computer being able to identify a five gene animal but putting hard parameters on a single gene is very doable. Other than hopefully being able to tell my gravels from yellowbellys there is no direct financial gain for me and even that money is peanuts. It is just a fun project. The same AI is being adapted for some currency exchange trading (this may actually make money lol).

What is to be gained by rating (I'm changing that word to defining) morphs?

People will have an easier time figuring out what morph that impulse buy is.
Single gene animals can make a comeback.
There is something other than a subjective value marker placed on an animal.
Blood lines can be certified and tracked.
Closet breeders stand a chance of competing with the big boys with an equal animal.
Line breeding for desired traits will pay off big.
There are many more.....

You would not be rating the animal as a whole, you are rating the individual attributes of the animal. And not just the paint. I would include temperament, potential size, and breeding viability. The buyer would be able to get the animal that meets their needs and in my bet would be willing to pay more for this reason. What happens to unwanted animals? The same thing as now.

[Eric Alan]

Now that's interesting. I'm not sure I agree with all of the long-term benefits being worth the effort, but I can see where you're going with this.

How are you establishing your baseline? Where is the input "teaching" data coming from? Beyond your Mojave/Phantom example, have you expanded to any other morphs?

[Kcl]

That's a very interesting software project. While the ball python morph recognition version might not be "worth" the effort just as a direct value proposition, I have a feeling there's a lot of uses for a good pattern recognition software like electronic conversion of old handwritten texts. Either way, "useful" applications or not, it's pretty interesting.