Is this a common practice?

[chrid16371]

Pairing Father x Daughter, Son x Mother, Brother x Sister

Is this a common practice for breeding or should it be avoided? Does it cause any ill effects?

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[JodanOrNoDan]

Line breeding is common and sometimes a necessity. Many morphs started out as just a single specimen. It is not dangerous as long as you are breeding genetically healthy animals.

[chrid16371]

Line breeding is common and sometimes a necessity. Many morphs started out as just a single specimen. It is not dangerous as long as you are breeding genetically healthy animals.

I always wondered what line breeding meant. I figured it would take a lot of time out of a breeding project depending on what your going for. What do you mean by genetically healthy?

[bcr229]

It's very common especially when proving out a new morph.

Personally I wouldn't do it for more than a generation, but by then you should have half-sibs to pair.

[JodanOrNoDan]

I always wondered what line breeding meant. I figured it would take a lot of time out of a breeding project depending on what your going for. What do you mean by genetically healthy?

If the potential mother or father is carrying an undesirable trait you would not line breed until the undesirable trait has been removed from the line. Lets pretend for a second that albinism is an undesirable trait. The trait does not manifest itself unless the animal carries two copies of the gene. So out crossing would be safer. Any inbreeding would increase the chance of the bad gene expressing itself. In a real world example, there are certain morphs know to have a high incidence of kinking. I would not line breed these animals because the heterozygous is safe but the homozygous is not.

[Family Jewels]

Line breeding is common and sometimes a necessity. Many morphs started out as just a single specimen. It is not dangerous as long as you are breeding genetically healthy animals.

Although common, it is still irresponsible (and lazy) if you inbreed JUST to save a few bucks. If there is nothing particularly unique or special about your animals and you're not trying to prove something out, there's no good reason to risk it.

Back in the 90's and early 2000's, many breeders had a nonchalant attitude about inbreeding that led to all kinds of problems in recessive morphs. Albinos were commonly born without eyes and aside from the spider wobble, I still almost exclusively see congenital neurological defects in "line bred" recessive morphs. Double recessives are often the worst because of how many generations of inbreeding are involved. There was a big movement towards "out-crossing" lines to the point where a classified ad would specify that the het for sale was out-crossed, and many breeders added years to their projects trying to out-cross their stocks.

I think the out-crossing movement was successful enough that now there are probably very few of you who have ever seen an eye-less snake being sold at an expo (discounted of course, reassured by the breeder that it's totally not genetic).

I'm not condemning anyone who chooses to inbreed, I'm just reminding (or informing) people that this WAS a big problem in the past, and it shouldn't be so casually forgotten.

[JodanOrNoDan]

Although common, it is still irresponsible (and lazy) if you inbreed JUST to save a few bucks. If there is nothing particularly unique or special about your animals and you're not trying to prove something out, there's no good reason to risk it.

Back in the 90's and early 2000's, many breeders had a nonchalant attitude about inbreeding that led to all kinds of problems in recessive morphs. Albinos were commonly born without eyes and aside from the spider wobble, I still almost exclusively see congenital neurological defects in "line bred" recessive morphs. Double recessives are often the worst because of how many generations of inbreeding are involved. There was a big movement towards "out-crossing" lines to the point where a classified ad would specify that the het for sale was out-crossed, and many breeders added years to their projects trying to out-cross their stocks.

I think the out-crossing movement was successful enough that now there are probably very few of you who have ever seen an eye-less snake being sold at an expo (discounted of course, reassured by the breeder that it's totally not genetic).

I'm not condemning anyone who chooses to inbreed, I'm just reminding (or informing) people that this WAS a big problem in the past, and it shouldn't be so casually forgotten.

Idiot breeders are NOT a reason to not line breed. Idiots are still idiots no matter how they breed. Knowingly line breeding bad traits is unethical. Smart line breeding has been done for at least a thousand years. It is the only way to fix a trait. I believe you are basing your opinion on how you "feel" rather than science and actual knowledge.

[blue roses]

So, since my boy is a spinner blast (spider, pastel, pin stripe) I got my girl from an unrelated breeder in another state, an enchee firefly, (pastel, fire, enchee) to eventually breed to him. Will i be able to water down the spider gene. I would also love to pick up a coral glow female from an unrelated breeder, to give me enough of genetics to work with. Is this a good plan of action, since my house space is limited. As an retired dog breeder, i know the challenges of line breeding, and maintaining the best traits during outcrossing. In dogs any breeding you do using dogs related closer then cousins is in-breeding, line -breeding is cousins or niece, or nephew to aunt or uncle, and a out cross is no relation to any dog for at least 3 generations. The accepted practise is 1 line breed to 2 outcrosses, then a line breed then 2 out crosses, but this is in dogs not really nessecery in snakes, i guess, unless you want to bury a bad trait, like a wobble. Am i being over causious or is this a good practise, any suggestions would be helpful and opinions weighed carefully.

[Freakie_frog]

So, since my boy is a spinner blast (spider, pastel, pin stripe) I got my girl from an unrelated breeder in another state, an enchee firefly, (pastel, fire, enchee) to eventually breed to him. Will i be able to water down the spider gene. I would also love to pick up a coral glow female from an unrelated breeder, to give me enough of genetics to work with. Is this a good plan of action, since my house space is limited. As an retired dog breeder, i know the challenges of line breeding, and maintaining the best traits during outcrossing. In dogs any breeding you do using dogs related closer then cousins is in-breeding, line -breeding is cousins or niece, or nephew to aunt or uncle, and a out cross is no relation to any dog for at least 3 generations. The accepted practise is 1 line breed to 2 outcrosses, then a line breed then 2 out crosses, but this is in dogs not really nessecery in snakes, i guess, unless you want to bury a bad trait, like a wobble. Am i being over causious or is this a good practise, any suggestions would be helpful and opinions weighed carefully.

What do you mean "water down the spider gene"?

[JodanOrNoDan]

So, since my boy is a spinner blast (spider, pastel, pin stripe) I got my girl from an unrelated breeder in another state, an enchee firefly, (pastel, fire, enchee) to eventually breed to him. Will i be able to water down the spider gene. I would also love to pick up a coral glow female from an unrelated breeder, to give me enough of genetics to work with. Is this a good plan of action, since my house space is limited. As an retired dog breeder, i know the challenges of line breeding, and maintaining the best traits during outcrossing. In dogs any breeding you do using dogs related closer then cousins is in-breeding, line -breeding is cousins or niece, or nephew to aunt or uncle, and a out cross is no relation to any dog for at least 3 generations. The accepted practise is 1 line breed to 2 outcrosses, then a line breed then 2 out crosses, but this is in dogs not really nessecery in snakes, i guess, unless you want to bury a bad trait, like a wobble. Am i being over causious or is this a good practise, any suggestions would be helpful and opinions weighed carefully.

There is no watering. A snake is either heterozygous for spider or it is not. As far as we know there is no surviving homo version. The wobble is linked to the visual gene. No one has had any success reducing wobble through breeding. I can guarantee that any spider will wobble if put under enough stress. There are many threads on here about this. Understand all things spider before you breed them.