Some rat breeding questions

[Devenco]

Hello, a few months ago I got some ball pythons who are strict live feeders. That is when I started getting in live rats, the last time I got a group of rats I noticed to late it was a nice mix of males and females. This resulted in ending up with 2 females which are pregnant now, hold them back instead of feeding them off. They should be laying soon and they already are making a nest, now after some looking around and reading I wanted some clear answers on some clear questions I have!

I am breeding them for feeder rats, but I must admit I also like going for combinations and see what kind of pups come out! Are there any lethal combinations?

Since most of my ball pythons are feeding on frozen thawed and I have no intention of switching them to live, what is a good way to prepare them to go into the freezer (the excess)?

What do I need to look out for while picking my breeding stock ? (diseases etc.etc.)

Can I house multiple pregnant females together? If so what is the recommended size of this group and pro/cons ?

How big (in cm if possible ) should the tub be for 1 female or a group of females ?

Hopefully I can get some answers here

[artgecko]

I've only been breeding for a short amount of time but I'll try to help answer a few of your questions.

Go for temperament before coloration... Use any that bite or are extremely skittish as feeders, hold back the calmest friendliest ones to breed. Getting bitten by a rat is no joke and temperament is mainly genetic (so a biting mom or dad= biting pups when they get older). Are you in the UK? I think there is a national fancy rat society (or something like that) there that has a website that shows different colors and markings. There are a huge variety and the genetics can be complex.

I think pearl (not sure if it is US pearl or UK) can be lethal if homozygouos (would die in utero and result in smaller litters). Also, sox10 also called dominant white spotting is linked to a condition called megacolon. These are the heavily white patched rats that do not look hooded, variegated, etc. Although pups from these parents that do not look that way (solid, berkshire, etc.) can also have MC. Look up megacolon in rats and you will see lots of information. Basically, it results in pups that start showing signs shortly after weaning.. They cannot process solid foods properly and start swelling with gas and unprocessed food in their abdomen, they also get very skinny at the same time because they can't process nutrients and are basically starving while eating. All MC pups should be euthanized and no siblings or the parents should be bred again as it is recessive and they can be carriers.

The most humane way to euthanize feeders is via Co2 (carbon dioxide). There are many videos on Youtube showing Co2 setups and how to use them. The main thing is you want to control the release of Co2 gas (very slowly) so that they get sleepy before passing out... If you release the gas quickly, the rats experience a smothering sensation and panic... Not a nice way to go. You can also do cervical dislocation (breaking their neck) but this takes skill and learning from someone who knows how to do it as quickly and painlessly as possible.

After killing them, I make sure mine are dry (no pee, etc.) position them with their tails tucked to their body (easier packaging) and put in ziplock freezer bags.

Most common issues with rats (that you are buying) is to look for mites, lice, heavy discharge from eyes / nose, and sneezing, wheezing, "poping" noises when they breath. Rats are very susceptible to respiratory issues. With mites / lice they will be scratching and you will see wounds or hair loss. Mites / lice are highly contagious and not easily treated.

You should also do strict quarantine with any new arrivals for at least 1 month in a room / air space that is not where your colony is. Rats can transmit illness fast and tend to also die very quickly once infected (in my experience).

As for housing, you will get different opinions. It depends on the does... Some help each other raise pups and get along great, others fight over the litters, kill pups, get nervous, etc. You need to be careful to observe them closely if you are housing them together.

For tub size... My advice is to go as big as you can. Most here use the largest cement mixing tubs available in rack systems to house breeders... I believe usually 1.2 or 1.3 ratio per tub. It is a good idea to rotate the male and give females a break (at least 4 weeks) after they wean their litters before putting them with a male again.

Babies will also need to be separated by sex at around 5 weeks or the male pups can impregnate sisters / mother. This means you will need grow out space for them. Females should not be bred until 4-6 months old... Many people use weight as a guide, I can't remember the number off the top of my head.

I do not use a rack, I use large rubbermaid bins (like sterelite containers that are clear). I cut large "windows" on the top / sides and cover with hardware cloth (on the inside) and attach using metal wire or zip ties. This gives them ventilation and the plastic tubs are lightweight and easy to clean. I pick tubs that have flat bottoms and the largest floor space I can find. Rats are active and appreciate the room.

Also of note: Rats are very social. Try not to house them singly unless for birthing / rearing pups before weaning. Even males like to be with another male if not around females and they will get "depressed" if kept alone for long periods of time (I have seen this in my animals multiple times).

They will also need something to chew on..I use cardboard and wooden small animal chews. As far as diet, feed them a good staple lab block diet. around 18% protein.. they are less smelly if their diet does not contain too much protein and has little / no animal protein. I use native earth (harlan teklad) but if you are not in the US, you will have to find out what brands are good in your area. You can also supplement their diet with sunflower seeds, grains (oats, barley, rice etc.) and fresh veggies.. I use scraps / trimmings from when I cook for this. The healthier their diet, the healthier their litters and the healthier your snakes will be.

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

Hello, a few months ago I got some ball pythons who are strict live feeders. That is when I started getting in live rats, the last time I got a group of rats I noticed to late it was a nice mix of males and females. This resulted in ending up with 2 females which are pregnant now, hold them back instead of feeding them off. They should be laying soon and they already are making a nest, now after some looking around and reading I wanted some clear answers on some clear questions I have!

You know you're a herper when you refer to rats giving birth as laying . You know you're too much of a herper when you refer to your wife's pregnancy as being gravid... though, maybe that makes us more on the ball as the medical term is gravida.

I am breeding them for feeder rats, but I must admit I also like going for combinations and see what kind of pups come out! Are there any lethal combinations?

Since most of my ball pythons are feeding on frozen thawed and I have no intention of switching them to live, what is a good way to prepare them to go into the freezer (the excess)?

What do I need to look out for while picking my breeding stock ? (diseases etc.etc.)

Can I house multiple pregnant females together? If so what is the recommended size of this group and pro/cons ?

How big (in cm if possible ) should the tub be for 1 female or a group of females ?

Hopefully I can get some answers here

The previous poster did a good job answering these but I'll give my advice on a couple.

There's only two humane methods, for your purposes, to euthanize and that's CO2 and cervical dislocation. There are other humane methods, such as pithing and drug cocktails, but neither are going to be a good method for frozen rodents for obvious reasons.

Get a paintball CO2 canister. You can order the canister, tubing, and a regulator on ebay for pretty cheap. Get it filled at local place and avoid a big box sporting goods store if you can... I've never gotten good service at one for this. Drill a hole small enough into a container for the tube. Add rats and start SLOWLY filling it with CO2. If you go to fast, the rats will panic and we want this to be as easy on them as possible. They will fall asleep/drop unconscious. Once unconscious, you can open up the regulator full blast. I usually go a few minutes past when I notice the last rat has stopped breathing to make sure they are all deceased.

Other people use dry ice instead of a canister and regulator. This is discouraged, though still effective, as it will distress the rats because you have no control over the flow. You'll save a few bucks initially using dry ice but will quickly save more in the long run going the proper route with a canister/regulator anyway.


I house my groups in 1.2 or 1.3. Pregnant females are not separated. I have no problems as long as all the females in the group are from the same litter and grew up together. I do sometimes mix litters in groups and then it's important to introduce the new group mates as soon as they are weaned. I've only been breeding rats for a few years, and there are people here with way more insight and experience, but that's been my experience.

[Devenco]

Thank you both for your insight!

I am based in the Netherlands by the way, I will also look up on youtube how to make a safe CO2 setup, also will look if canisters are easy to get here.

Currently I feed my rats lab blocks and if something is left over like bread,fruit etc. I also share it between all the tubs.

The chewing toys is something I could do indeed, can I use anything for this like cardboard from let's say a toilet paper roll ?


Another question, something I noticed with the litters of mice I got recently moms can go crazy... I know water and food can be 2 causes for this, but anything else I really need to keep an eye on while they are being weaned? Can I house a litter to a different female if the mom goes crazy?

Thank you for the informations and time

[wolfy-hound]

Rats don't tend to go crazy like mice sometimes do. They are generally very good moms, and if you do get one that is not, just cull her and replace her with a better mom.

Likewise, if you get a male who injures or kills females/pups, cull him.

If you get chewers, cull them(the whole bin). In my experience, if a rat chews the bin, all the rats in that bin will end up chewing. Only keep rats that are tame, healthy, fast growing, large litters, etc. You'll end up with a healthy colony that will produce well for you.

[artgecko]

Yes. I use toilet paper and paper towel rolls, old cereal boxes. or any cardboard I have laying around. They will also chew things made for dogs like whimzees, greenies, etc. and the wooden chew toys you can buy for hamsters, guinea pigs, or other rodents. Mine enjoy hiding in the old cardboard boxes as well and they make good houses that you can throw away when they get nasty.

Rats don't tend to kill litters as often as mice and usually there is a cause like not enough protein in their diet. You can supplement their diet with boiled eggs, tuna, or other protein when nursing to help them keep weight on and produce milk.