New to snakes... Couple questions on habitat/heating....

[Doggtyred]

Howdy gang. First post. Been lurking here for a few weeks reading everything I can find online.

First some backstory. I have inherited/am fostering a 3 year old normal ball python. My fiancee bought him from PetCo/Petsmart back then for her teenaged son. He had been fed frozen mice and his diet at the time I acquired him in mid-September was 3 f/t fuzzy mice per session. 32 inches long, 630 grams. He lived in a 45 gallon-long tank with screen top, a water bowl, a hot rock and a basking lamp. There was an adhesive thermometer on one side of the tank. Oh, and there was a big stick from somewhere put in as a vertical/climbing feature. I doubt it was sterilized. He would burrow under the water bowl in the substrate to make his hide. I have no idea when the last time the substrate was ever changed prior to our acquisition, but spot cleaned as needed. The tank was on the floor of her son's bedroom. Her son just finished basic training in the Army, and when he finishes AIT (Reserves) then he's college bound barring any callups/deployments. The snake, BeetleJuice, is ours until or unless he takes him back, but that will be several years at the earliest, so he's ours. Every thing I've read here so far tells me I should have a dead snake many times over but he seems to have done well despite suboptimal habitat...and underfeeding.

He's still in that 45-long tank, but he now has an undertank heater, new cypress mulch, a new half log and a hollow cast stone/rock feature for hides. The heat rock is in the landfill. I completely cleaned out the tank, scraped very dry substrate (and leftover sand... the tank held bearded dragons for his sister before). The water bowl (big) is over much of the undertank heater, the half log is over the rest of it. The basking lamp shines on the hollow cast rock (I think it was meant for desert lizards but its a good hide for him). No thermostat (yet). No humidifier (yet). The house ambient temp is 75-80 on a programmable thermostat. The basking lamp and the UTH run opposite of each other for now (one on, one off) using a programmable timer. Current in tank temps stay 80-85 using adhesive dial style thermometers on each end of the tank. Humidity runs 50%ish day and 70-80%ish night. Occasional hand misting/stirring substrate to boost humidity when needed. Feeding wise, he's been advanced to live mice (x1), then (x2), then (x3) per session. Followed by a small adult rat which he handled fine... his last feed a week ago was 2 crawler/weaned rats. The two crawlers came from a local pet store that focuses on reptiles, prior to that I was buying from big box pet store. Big box had only adult mice and rats live for sale, whereas my new source has a mice colony and rat colony with all sizes available. He declined feed today and appears to be going into shed. His weight yesterday was 730 grams and he is subjectively "thicker" now. He is docile and pretty chill, and tolerates handling well.

When we went to this new pet store, we saw a female super pastel BP in one of their cages for sale, and we'd been kicking around the idea of a second snake, so we ended up making the purchase. Lydia, as we are calling her, has been in house for a little over a week. Unfortunately I had not read up to the post on this forum regarding quarantine procedures, so that cat is out of the bag. She's in her own 20 gallon tank, but in the same room. That being said, I take care of the adult's tank or handle him first, then I take care of the new addition. Her tank layout is a scale model replica of BeetleJuice's with two hides, a UTH and a basking lamp. She is 73 grams, 18 inches, and was feeding on a single hopper mouse a week per the store (I viewed their feeding logs on her). She got a hopper mouse last Tuesday (which is about the time I realized why they are called "hopper" mice). I weighed the little bugger at 4-5 grams. Today (8 days later) she got a pinky rat (13 grams) and took it just fine. No idea when her last shed was. No idea exactly how old either snake is. Lydia is quite active in her enclosure and is constantly testing the corners to escape/explore.

Both tanks are in our informal living room on a table. Both tanks have blankets over the screentops to help keep out dust and keep in humidity. This living area can get a bit dusty with 3 large dogs and a dog door nearby. I've had no problems with dust in the tanks with this set up. So I recognize that I've improved the habitat significantly from BeetleJuice had before, but in reading many forum posts as well as other sources, I realize it is still suboptimal. I plan on getting herpstat's and upgrading the habitat once more to something that will likely be more permanent, as well as aesthetically pleasing to our eye. We intend to keep these two snakes in our living area, and we dont intend to add any other snakes in the immediate future, and while we are open to the idea of eventually breeding these two, that is years down the road, and was not the motivation for Lydia's purchase.

With that habitat upgrade in mind, I'm eyeing the Animal Plastics and ExoTerra brand enclosures. I'm not above building one or modifying an existing enclosure so that it can fit the "rustic furniture" look that we are going to in our living space.

My questions are as follows:
1) Can these two snakes eventually be kept permanently in the same enclosure safely? We will be keeping them separate until at least a vet visit (and our vet is already herp friendly, apparently), and have considered the need to keep them separate for the near future. What I am trying to decide is if I need one new enclosure or two... (The T-series with divider being another option). If they can be kept cohabitating are there any concerns? If they cannot, what are the reasons/rationales why not?

2) Given the apparent underfeeding that BeetleJuice has experienced, should I expect him to reach full normal adult size and weight with regular size-appropriate feeding?

3) Regarding temperature sensors... I have found several varieties of securing the temp probes from this forum. Placing on the outside of the bottom glass with the UTH centered over it.... placing a probe on top of the bottom panel and fixed with a screw... and placing a probe on top of the bottom glass in the substrate. I'm sure there isn't one simple correct answer, but I think I would like to read the temp inside the enclosure's bottom than the underside of the enclosure's bottom panel. Does anyone have any experience using fiberglass/epoxy and doing a "layup" to secure the temp probe semi-permanently to the inside of the enclosure? Its not the same as adhesive tape, and would require tools to remove so I would think it's safe compared to tape. Once cured, should be no solvent vapors. Is there something obvious I'm not seeing with this that could be a problem or harmful?

4) Humidity is a challenge and I dont want to overdo it, but at this point I think I'm going to simply put a fish pump/air stone in a mason jar to improve enclosure humidity. I have no problem spending some money to do the job, but I also recognize that expensive doesn't always mean better. If this doesn't work, then a mister/humidifier is the next step. Anyone else use this method?

5) Breeding isn't our purpose, but IF we are able to cohabit them (see question 1) then its inevitable to happen (or try to happen) if they are in the same enclosure. Will an undersize female actually successfully breed and is it harmful? or will she have to be 3 winters old (or whatever the metric is, that I've read here) before she is physically mature enough to ovulate and successfully breed. I've seen mention of temperature control being used to induce breeding behavior. Can it also be effectively used to prevent it from happening? Temp ranges to avoid or concentrate on? Much of this line of questioning is focusing on whether we truly need two separate enclosures moving forward or if it is reasonable to able to cohabit these two. I'm guessing stud-pants on snake just don't exist

More questions to follow later. I'm a newbie at all this, and as you can read above, we kind of jumped in feet-first. A bit about me: paramedic, nurse, nurse practitioner, natural science major back in the day. I'm all about evidence, numbers and best practices. I try to be an informed consumer of statistics and information. I recognize that the level of evidence I will be dealing with will be "expert consensus" rather than randomized controlled trials, but I suspect that will suffice just fine for these questions. Maybe Beetlejuice was lucky over the past few years, or maybe he's robust, but I would like to pay a greater attention to detail to his care while he's in our custody.

Thank you in advance for your time and advice.
Dave

[M.P.C]

For humidity you can cover the screen top mostly in aluminum foil.... Unplug the uth on both tanks till you have a thermostat before the snakes get burned on them. No you dont want to house them together, they will just compete for the best heat spot and hide in the tank and add unnessecary stress to both of them. Just keep feeding him amd he will grow, there is no set growth rate for ball pythons. They all grow at different rates.... And finally those dial and stick on guages are far from accurate. Get your self a digital with a probe or they have the infared heat guns so you can check specific spots... Also the light your using is this a white heat light or an infared/night bulb

[ReptiMoto]

1.) Best to keep them in separate tanks so that they dont breed and many experienced people say not to keep 2 bps in the same tank
2.) All bps grow differently, if he is fed normally though he should, but then again they are bps and will go off feed at one point.
3.) I dont about the apoxy but I think it would be fine since it is used to put fiberglass tanks together. Just make sure you think about cleaning. The snakes tank shouldnt just be spot cleaned for the time. So if the probe doesnt interfere with completely cleaning the tank I would say go for it. I personally just put the probe betwee the uth and tank.
4.) I have a humidifier and it works great. You can also set it up so that it humidifies both tanks at once. A wet rag in a mason jar (covered with like a mesh so that the snake cant go into it) also works.
5.) If you dont want breeding separate them. Also putting an underaged female with a fully aged male is harmfull and dangerous. In my opinnion I would separate the two.
Good luck with your new snakes. Bps are a blast.

[Smitty33]

As MPC says unplug your UTH's until you can get a thermostat. Before I got my snake I set my tank up and ran my zoo-med UTH unregulated as an experiment to see how hot it ran, it got up to 156F which would severely burn a snake. With a glass tank spangium moss can be your best friend for humidity. Wet it and pack it corners and what not and keep it misted.

I took this plastic skull and packed it with wet moss and it helps a lot, just pull it out on occasion and re-wet the moss inside as it dries out.
Your little ones tank it may be a good idea as well to get some aquarium background or black paper and cover the back and sides to help it feel more secure.

[200xth]

My questions are as follows:
1) Can these two snakes eventually be kept permanently in the same enclosure safely? We will be keeping them separate until at least a vet visit (and our vet is already herp friendly, apparently), and have considered the need to keep them separate for the near future. What I am trying to decide is if I need one new enclosure or two... (The T-series with divider being another option). If they can be kept cohabitating are there any concerns? If they cannot, what are the reasons/rationales why not?

They can be, people have done it successfully for decades. That said, it's usually better (and easier) not to house them together. It introduces some challenges and issues, and provides zero benefits to the snakes themselves. If one gets sick, they both get sick. Feeding becomes trickier because you need to take them out of the enclosure. It becomes more difficult to tell which one is having regurge or poop problems if either of those happens. If they're different sexes, you will eventually end up with babies.

Split them up. It'll be easier for you and there's no downside to it at all.

My questions are as follows:
2) Given the apparent underfeeding that BeetleJuice has experienced, should I expect him to reach full normal adult size and weight with regular size-appropriate feeding?

Yes. A consistent feeding program of appropriate size food will get him back on track and he'll catch up to where he should be.

My questions are as follows:
3) Regarding temperature sensors... I have found several varieties of securing the temp probes from this forum. Placing on the outside of the bottom glass with the UTH centered over it.... placing a probe on top of the bottom panel and fixed with a screw... and placing a probe on top of the bottom glass in the substrate. I'm sure there isn't one simple correct answer, but I think I would like to read the temp inside the enclosure's bottom than the underside of the enclosure's bottom panel. Does anyone have any experience using fiberglass/epoxy and doing a "layup" to secure the temp probe semi-permanently to the inside of the enclosure? Its not the same as adhesive tape, and would require tools to remove so I would think it's safe compared to tape. Once cured, should be no solvent vapors. Is there something obvious I'm not seeing with this that could be a problem or harmful?

I personally think it's easier and better to affix the probe outside of the enclosure. Put the probe between the tank and the UTH. There will be some heat loss in the glass, which you'll need to figure out and adjust to, ie if the loss is around 5 degrees, and you want your hotspot to be 90F, set the thermostat at 95F. If the snake can't reach the probe, he can't dislodge it or pee and poop all over it which can affect the temp readings.

My questions are as follows:
4) Humidity is a challenge and I dont want to overdo it, but at this point I think I'm going to simply put a fish pump/air stone in a mason jar to improve enclosure humidity. I have no problem spending some money to do the job, but I also recognize that expensive doesn't always mean better. If this doesn't work, then a mister/humidifier is the next step. Anyone else use this method?

Before you start adjusting the humidity, get a humidity gauge and see what your humidity actually is. If it naturally falls into an acceptable range there is no reason to do anything.

My questions are as follows:
5) Breeding isn't our purpose, but IF we are able to cohabit them (see question 1) then its inevitable to happen (or try to happen) if they are in the same enclosure. Will an undersize female actually successfully breed and is it harmful? or will she have to be 3 winters old (or whatever the metric is, that I've read here) before she is physically mature enough to ovulate and successfully breed. I've seen mention of temperature control being used to induce breeding behavior. Can it also be effectively used to prevent it from happening? Temp ranges to avoid or concentrate on? Much of this line of questioning is focusing on whether we truly need two separate enclosures moving forward or if it is reasonable to able to cohabit these two. I'm guessing stud-pants on snake just don't exist

If you cohab a male and female you will get babies at some point. You don't need to do anything to temps to induce breeding and you can't really use temp ranges to stop it unless you set the temps to a generally unhealthy level. They are tougher creatures than most people believe. Dropping the temps a couple of degrees will not stop them from reproducing.

Even if you are planning on breeding them eventually, house them separately (see above answer to #1). If/when you want to breed them, you can put them together for a few days when the time is right.

[Doggtyred]

Thank you for the feedback and answers everyone. Herpstat's ordered. Regarding hygiene feedback, I agree that spot cleaning only is inadequate, and as soon as my male completes his shed his tank gets disinfected again with new bedding. Is consensus opinion that a complete disinfection cycle with each shed and spot cleaning daily considered adequate? or shoot for more frequent?