Is live feeding really that bad?

[Zincubus]

Still can't understand anyone feeding live . I'd feel so bad for the rodent so it won't be happening plus I've heard reports of mice age rats crying for ages whilst they're being constricted ( supposedly sounds like a human baby crying !) . Also I care far too much for my precious snakes to rusk them being bitten or scratched causing infections or worse and scarring . Check out the thousands of online photos of bitten / scratched snakes . Many lose an eye . Why on earth take the risk when you can defrost and simply heat up for ten seconds with a hair dryer ..

Just my take on things ..

Really don't see what's wrong with this post .

I never said bad things happened every time or even often .

Just my take on the issue .

[Zincubus]

April 5th not ages ago.

You don't offer a different perspective you force YOUR opinion based on ZERO experience and you keep trying to scare people instead of educating them.

Some of us offer FACTS based on experience

Like I said before I do not care what people feed so long they do it based on knowledge and not out of fear because someone as an agenda.

Well I'm never going change my stance in this topic .. Again what's the point of a forum if its not to listen to both sides .

5 months isn't long. ! ??

I've no idea what I had for dinner YESTERDAY so 5 months is a very long time to be fair .

Some of you folks seem rather sensitive or defensive on this issue and see me as an attacker for some reason .

Anyways. . It's my bedtime . Getting late over here in the UK.

Just like to reiterate that I've no intention of upsetting / annoying anyone ..

[BCS]

Really don't see what's wrong with this post .

I never said bad things happened every time or even often .

Just my take on the issue .

You say you do not understand why people even feed live. Not understanding is the same thing as saying you are uneducated. Not understanding that gravity equals 9.81 m/s means that you are uneducated in physics. I do not understand how my husband can play Destiny on the PS4 for hours on end but hey, I have never played so is it really my place to judge? I do not like video games but that doesn't mean my husband can't play. Honestly, and I really hate to say this but can you even have a "take on the issue" if you do not understand? You only understand the risks but you do not understand how live feeding is safe.

[John1982]

I've found countless wild snakes, herping since I was barely more than a toddler flipping rocks, and zero have had missing eyes. Before you say, "they obviously die from those wounds", I've found my fair share of snakes scarred to kingdom come - from injuries the half of which would surely kill a person. Snakes are incredibly tough and can take a beating. They'd probably just rub a bit of dirt in a gouged eye and slither on their merry way. A good many of these heavily scarred individuals are probably survivors of run ins with predators(hawks, raccoons, foxes, hoe wielding human, etc) that managed to escape. Being in an enclosed space actually gives a greater advantage to the limbless snake as they now have 4 walls for extra leverage - it's no coincidence that many snakes will go to ground to chase/corner their prey. You would think if being in tight quarters was a disadvantage they'd adapt to something better - like the always popular ambush near a game trail or watering hole.

Just watch a constrictor bite and coil sometime - they have had a few years to figure out how to protect themselves. Here's a little break down:
1) latches onto prey, this is their most vulnerable state but only lasts a split second
2) throw first coil, usually a "u" shaped one that covers/protects their head
3) add another coil or two and it's pretty much game over

I should mention that a serpent often starts pulling back with their head as soon as they latch on which helps set their teeth while bringing the ensuing coils into play all the sooner. The resulting "stretching" of the prey gives them better control of the situation and allows them to easily throw extra coils if the need arises. Overly enthusiastic constrictors or those that feed more heavily on other snakes - such as king snakes - tend to do this on just about every feed and will often fully wrap their prey regardless of how much control they already have of the situation. This is also why when you mention a person who had a baby rodent scream like a dying child I can't help but shake my head at the needless suffering due to an inexperienced keeper. All it would have taken is a little shaking of the rodent, maybe a slight pinch on the snakes body or poke around it's head, to induce a kill before feeding.

[PitOnTheProwl]

Never in your original post did you say that these things 'sometimes' happen. It really looked like you thinking it was a very big thing. And like the others said, you can't talk bad about something you never tried. I'd understand not wanting to risk it but then you can't go off and say it's an immoral thing to do.

With proper knowledge and supervision feeding live is safe. Like those people who has fed thousands of snakes live prey and not one injury because they are cautious.

And this right here I can respect. Why? Read all the posts and think for yourself of your free mind and understand.

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

I disagree to the whole suffering thing. I used to euthanize my own feeders using C02. It took 20 minutes. They basically suffocated while they slept, and the younger they are, the longer it takes. And they were terrified. Death by snake strangulation is just as terrifying BUT it takes my adult female to constrict a jumbo ASF in 2 minutes! 2 minutes seems a lot better then suffering for 20 minutes.

I was going to raise this point but I see you beat me to it.

There are absolutely valid reasons for preferring f/t over live but not wanting to cause suffering of the animal isn't one. If you're ordering f/t, you have caused the suffering and death of that rat just as much as throwing it live into the snake tub. You want to talk about horror stories?!!! Read about the ways people have put down rats for f/t. Top of this list is putting them in a 5 gallon bucket of water and then adding another bucket with a brick on top to drown them. Dispatch by bp is much more humane. Do you know how your f/t are euthanized, especially if coming from a local pet store?

There are ways to do CO2 euthanasia as humanely as possible. This involves the use of a regulator so you can control the flow which is necessary to induce unconsciousness without panic. Dropping a CO2 block in water is not the way to do this. I'm not speaking out against the use of CO2 blocks, but if you are using them or buying f/t from someone who does, it's no different than the fear a rat feels as it's being constricted.

There's a strong disconnect sometimes with people when they don't do the killing directly (or by bp proxy). My family is not happy with the way chickens are raised and treated in the factory system so we raise and slaughter cornish rocs ourselves. We give them as quick a death as possible (much more humane than anything gets from the grocery store) and it's much higher quality food. I still get amazed when I hear someone say "That's horrible, how could you kill a defenseless bird" or some such as they're biting into their chicken sandwich. Same thing with the live vs. f/t debate if you're bringing suffering into it. Just because you're not witnessing it doesn't mean it didn't occur.

I feed about 1k live each year with not a single problem yet. Overproduction is humanely euthanized for f/t feeders as necessary.

[Zincubus]

You say you do not understand why people even feed live. Not understanding is the same thing as saying you are uneducated. Not understanding that gravity equals 9.81 m/s means that you are uneducated in physics. I do not understand how my husband can play Destiny on the PS4 for hours on end but hey, I have never played so is it really my place to judge? I do not like video games but that doesn't mean my husband can't play. Honestly, and I really hate to say this but can you even have a "take on the issue" if you do not understand? You only understand the risks but you do not understand how live feeding is safe.

Well it isn't totally safe though , is it !?

That's ONE reason why I wouldn't take the risk even if I wanted to feed live .

My stance on the whole live feeding issue is easy to understand and yet you're apparently struggling terribly .

Also ,your claim that not understanding something equates to being uneducated is laughable .

[Zincubus]

I feed about 1k live each year with not a single problem yet. Overproduction is humanely euthanized for f/t feeders as necessary.

How long do you spend feeding each ONE incidentally , presuming you don't leave snake and rat unattended ??

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

How long do you spend feeding each ONE incidentally , presuming you don't leave snake and rat unattended ??

Usually maybe 15 seconds or so per snake (5 to drop in, 5 to watch for a solid strike, 5 to remove if uneaten). Most strike immediately but the one's who don't get about 15 or 30 minutes and then the rat gets removed. I spend that time doing other husbandry tasks so doesn't really count.

[distaff]

One thing that made a strong impression on me early on when I started researching was an account by a guy who blamed a bad batch of F/T for the death of his boa. He believed that the rats had gone bad before they were frozen, and caused two regurges (to the best of my memory).

Could have been the case, I don't know. I do know for sure that if I get a live mouse - it hasn't spoiled! I can also get a general impression on its current health.

We raise our own chickens, rabbits and goats. I butcher the rabbits and poultry. I have butchered goats, but it is easier to send them off. I know they had comfortable lives, I know what they ate, I know they were healthy when they died, I know the slaughter was quick and humane, and I know the butchering process was sanitary. Might as well have the same for the snakes if possible. We buy live mice from the local independently owned pet store - they raise their own, and I've told the owner I want to buy some breeders to start my own colony.