Maternal Aggression, bites, and antibiotics?

[artgecko]

So... The litter that I posted about in the rats forum, that I was so excited about? Well the mother just nailed me good and now I'm on the fence about what to do. She didn't have the best temperament.. a little shy and had nipped at me a couple times before, but today she came to the opposite end of the tub ( I was taking out trash) and bit deeply... pretty big painful wound with a lot of blood. I knew that she didn't have the best personality to begin with (which is why I bred her to my friendliest male) but now I'm unsure about what to do with her and the litter.

I KNOW that I will be culling her as soon as possible... That said, I'd like your input on the options I think I have.
1. Cull her as soon as my other female gives birth and foster some of her pups to the other female (try to continue the line with the most friendly of her pups)
2. Cull her as soon as the pups are weaned, keep pups only to grow out for feeders (not continue the line at all)
3. Cull her as soon as the pups are weaned and select the most friendly pup to try to continue the line (attempt to breed out the aggression).

This is my first litter and was supposed to be part of the foundation for my breeding program... I deliberately got rats from a breeder (feeder and pet) who said that she has bred out aggression from her lines... Which is what makes this doubly frustrating. If my other female successfully gives birth, I would be more open to culling all pups from this litter, but that will also remove her coloration from the genes I have to work with (she is beige, all the other ones I have are Russian color variants blue dove and cinnamon).

Other than your advice on what to do with her / pups, I need advice on treating the bite. I washed it, disinfected it, bandaged it and put neosporin on it. My question for you guys is should I get antibiotics and if so, what do I need to ask for? I know rats can carry rat bite fever, but don't know the most effective form of antibiotics for it.

I'd love any input you guys have or any experiences you've had with this and how you handled it. I never realized it would be this hard to find good rats to start breeding. :/

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Nipping while having babies can be expected (slight nip not a deep bite) however if she had not of the best temperament to start with when not nursing the animal should not be kept neither are any of the offspring.

Always hold back rats from the largest litter from mother with the best temperament.

Number 2 is the way to go.

[distaff]

I would not give up on this mother nor her genetics just yet. Females of many species are hormonal with babies. I have a broody hen right now who puts welts on my hand when I reach for her eggs. Not her fault...and I may start hanging an old glove in the hen house. She is otherwise a perfectly placid animal.

If the rat were mine, I would wait and see how the babies turn out.

[artgecko]

Thanks for your input!

I have contacted her breeder and she swears that none of her rats bite, nor is maternal aggression carried in her lines.... She thinks it is because the mother "doesn't trust" me because I didn't handle them all the time after I got them. The other rats I got from her are friendly (with the same amount of handling) so this could just be a random nervous / aggressive animal from an otherwise ok line. The mother was bred to my friendliest male, so I was hoping that his personality would show in the offspring.

I think I am going to cull the mother when the pups are weaned but hold back a couple pups from the litter (based solely on temperament not looks) and see how things go with them. If they show any aggression, I will cull them at that point. If the breeder is correct, and I handle these pups as much as possible (putting the mom in another container while doing so) then maybe they will come out ok. I may rethink this after my other female delivers... I'm just hesitant to nix the whole litter because rats are hard to come by here.

Thanks again for your input!

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Thanks for your input!

I have contacted her breeder and she swears that none of her rats bite, nor is maternal aggression carried in her lines.... She thinks it is because the mother "doesn't trust" me because I didn't handle them all the time after I got them. The other rats I got from her are friendly (with the same amount of handling) so this could just be a random nervous / aggressive animal from an otherwise ok line. The mother was bred to my friendliest male, so I was hoping that his personality would show in the offspring.

I think I am going to cull the mother when the pups are weaned but hold back a couple pups from the litter (based solely on temperament not looks) and see how things go with them. If they show any aggression, I will cull them at that point. If the breeder is correct, and I handle these pups as much as possible (putting the mom in another container while doing so) then maybe they will come out ok. I may rethink this after my other female delivers... I'm just hesitant to nix the whole litter because rats are hard to come by here.

Thanks again for your input!

That sounds like a pet breeder response.

I do not handle any of my rats, I clean cages but the handling comes down to grabbing the rat putting it in a holding tub while cleaning it's tub, none of my rats bite, the key is/was that from the start there was a ZERO tolerance policiy for bitters and chewers, a female bites her and her litter are culled.

Again to have a good colony holding back the BEST of the BEST is important and if you do you won't have to handle any rats.

[artgecko]

Yeah... She was a pet / feeder breeder who just recently stopped breeding for feeders and only sells pets now.. But I wouldn't think she'd have issues with culling (from her background breeding feeders). It may be more of... she doesn't want to admit her line can have aggression or she handles / socializes them so much that she doesn't see it.. I handled all of the rats she gave me a normal amount.. I don't hold them much, but I do pet them / give treats, clean cage and move them to do so, etc. Of the 6 rats I got from her, 3 were very friendly, 2 not super social (this is one of those) and 1 was extremely shy to the point of running in terror or freezing whenever approached. Unfortunately, one of the best (and friendliest) females developed MC and I had to euthanize her... Breeder said it was an outcross litter and she didn't know it would cause MC. So of the 3 females I had left, 1 is friendly (waiting on her to whelp now), 1 psycho nervous (not breeding and planning to euthanize when I euthanize this beige female), and the beige female that is the mother of this litter. You can definitely say that I am less than thrilled with how these rats have turned out (other than the 2 males and 1 friendly female).... If the breeder was all that she claims her program to be, I don't think I'd have these issues.

Honestly, I wouldn't have tried breeding from this female except that she was 1 of 2 that I had left as options. It is literally impossible to get female rats here (no breeders and stores only sell males) and we were able to meet this breeder at the last Dixie show in Atlanta (February) when she lives in SC. If there were more options locally, I would have no qualms about culling this entire litter.

Do you think given the good temperament of the male, some of these pups might turn out ok? i guess I won't know until one of the females is old enough to breed, then see what happens. If the other female's litter turns out ok, I may not have to worry about it.

Thanks again for your advice!

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Do you think given the good temperament of the male, some of these pups might turn out ok? i guess I won't know until one of the females is old enough to breed, then see what happens. If the other female's litter turns out ok, I may not have to worry about it.

Thanks again for your advice!

To me it's not worth if to wait and see, which is why I have a zero tolerance policy, and cull what I consider a bad line immediately, this includes biters, and I must say it have served me well over the years.

Ultimately it's up to you.

[wolfy-hound]

I would cull the female and the litter.

I've tried working with biters way back in the past and it never worked out that the rat was trustworthy. Generally speaking, the babies all carried the same traits as the parent. Culling the line worked better.

You have so many red flags regarding the rats you got from that breeder that I would now consider all the information dubious. Many pet rat breeders(in my personal experience) will dismiss all bites as "playing" or "I startled it" or whatever, and then state their rats never bite. Handling rats doesn't make them have a good temperament.

I handle most of my rats the bare minimum of time, lifting them out for cleaning and sometime to check to see how they're fleshing out after a litter, etc. I also handle babies with the moms there. I don't get bit because every biter was culled. Rats that harmed babies were culled. I have been advised to "give him another chance" and to "handle them more" or "he only killed babies because they weren't his..." and all and in my personal experience, a male that kills babies will kill more babies. A rat that bites will bite more. A rat that chews will always chew.

A nervous or scared rat will sometimes calm down with handling. But usually nervous rats will have nervous babies.

If you MUST have more rats now, then keep the mom and all babies separate from your nicer rats until you have enough other rats and then cull them. Just make sure you know which rats are from that line so when you need to cull, you can eliminate all the bad line.

[artgecko]

Thanks for your great advice!
I am still mulling it over... If I do keep any pups from this litter they will be very carefully observed and at the first sign of any aggression (towards me or other rats) they will be culled. The other female still has not delivered (she is huge, so I'm expecting her to tonight or tomorrow) and if she has a large litter, I may plan on culling all the pups from this litter. Of course, I don't know if she will have any maternal aggression issues, but she has a great temperament so far (likes to be handled, never attempted to nip, etc.) so I'm hoping this won't be an issue with her.

I will update you guys on how things develop with the babies from this litter. Do you know how soon signs of aggression would show in the pups as they mature?

[hockeygirl28]

That sounds like a pet breeder response.

I do not handle any of my rats, I clean cages but the handling comes down to grabbing the rat putting it in a holding tub while cleaning it's tub, none of my rats bite, the key is/was that from the start there was a ZERO tolerance policiy for bitters and chewers, a female bites her and her litter are culled.

Again to have a good colony holding back the BEST of the BEST is important and if you do you won't have to handle any rats.

This is my policy as well. Minimal handling, very selective breeding.

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