My "theory"

[Adam_Wysocki]

No one said anything about taking a bus. The analogy was that feeding live is like riding in a car without a seatbelt on. Statistically, chances may be low that you'll be involved in a serious accident, but in the off chance that you are, wouldn't you rather be wearing the seatbelt?

I also know of two people that were driving cars, got into accidents and were impaled on their steering column because they were wearing a seatbelt. If they had not had the seatbelt on, they would have been thrown thru the windshiled and more than likely lived according to the investigating officers.

Quite frankly, Adam, I'm surprised you're still arguing this. Plenty of people here have described injuries they have seen first-hand, most of which were not from unsupervised feedings.

I'm not arguing anything. I thought this was a discussion?? I am just freely contributing my thoughts as other people continue to post. I will not stop because I know what I say to be true. From experience .... a lot of it.

Less than a dozen stories of bites on this thread (none fatal, one that needed vet care) vs. my 10,000 successful live feedings a year for the past 10 years should sway me? LOL ... A captive ball python has a chance of being burnt up in a house fire. Thru my rescue work, I've worked with at least a dozen ... does that make keeping a ball python in a house unsafe?

You talk about being responsible, yet you say you just drop in the live mouse and walk away.

And I come back and check on each one in an hour or so. What's not responsible about that? I haven't had a single snake bitten in 10 years. I must be doing something right? Or are you going to tell me that I am just lucky? ... LOL

You say that feeding frozen/thawed would take up too much time, yet if you actually supervised your feedings it would take up just as much if not more time than feeding frozen/thawed. Rusty described how she can drop in a dead prey item and walk away with total peace of mind.

Rusty is feeding 4 ball pythons. I am feeding 200. Wanna come over and have a race? Live feeding is faster. Call any large scale ball python breeder and see what method they prefer and why.

Personally, I prefer a breeder that starts snakes off on frozen/thawed prey. It makes for much less picky eaters. All the snakes I have that have had nothing but frozen/thawed food are excellent eaters and have never missed a feeding unless their eyes were clouded over during a shed.

For my customers that request it, I gladly switch their babies over to PK or FT. In ten years I've never had a customer complain about a problem feeder (or anything else for that matter) and my reviews and reputation are excellent. If you'd like some references I'd be glad to supply them so you can see for yourself. The animals that I sell are PERFECT in every way!

You seem to be wanting to make this out to be that I am "anti" FT or PK and nothing can be further from the truth. Unlike a lot of people it seems, I beleive that ANY way you choose to feed your snake is fine as long as you are being responsible and the snake is eating and healthy.

-adam

[BallPythonBabe448]

I know that picture has been around for years. And I know it was left in for a week, but still, lots of people don't think to check back on the snake, assuming its eaten, till tey suspect its been fully digested (48hrs) and go to hold it, and their snake looks like that.

On another forum, there was a thread about this lady's sons Ball Pythons. She had never wanted to touch the snake, so evidentaly she didn't know much about them. Her son went off for the night, and asked her to feed the snake. Well, she put a live rat in there(small), and no knowingly, left it over night. Next morning she was suprised to see what had happened to her sons snake, and she knew it was her fault. She decided then that she started the troubles for the snake, and she was going to fix them. So she took the snake to the vet, and got 30 stitches, yes 30 stitches from one night. The snake would never eat again. The last time she posted was nine months after the snake tragedy began, and the snake would still not eat, so I beleive she took it to the vet. That is the last we heard from her (it was like 5 months ago), and she never posted the outcome of the poor Ball Python.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I know that picture has been around for years. And I know it was left in for a week, but still, lots of people don't think to check back on the snake, assuming its eaten, till tey suspect its been fully digested (48hrs) and go to hold it, and their snake looks like that.

On another forum, there was a thread about this lady's sons Ball Pythons. She had never wanted to touch the snake, so evidentaly she didn't know much about them. Her son went off for the night, and asked her to feed the snake. Well, she put a live rat in there(small), and no knowingly, left it over night. Next morning she was suprised to see what had happened to her sons snake, and she knew it was her fault. She decided then that she started the troubles for the snake, and she was going to fix them. So she took the snake to the vet, and got 30 stitches, yes 30 stitches from one night. The snake would never eat again. The last time she posted was nine months after the snake tragedy began, and the snake would still not eat, so I beleive she took it to the vet. That is the last we heard from her (it was like 5 months ago), and she never posted the outcome of the poor Ball Python.

Did you know that if you left a frozen thawed or pre-killed rat in the cage with your snake for a week, that it could make your snake very ill or even kill it?

The bacteria that would fester within and on the rat in the warm conditions of a ball python enclosure could contaminate the water bowl and eventually the snake.

Lack of common sense and irresponsible ownership can be unsafe no matter how you choose to feed your snake.

-adam

[BallPythonBabe448]

Yes, and that can also happen if p00 is left in the cage for more than 24 hours after noticing it.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Yes, and that can also happen if p00 is left in the cage for more than 24 hours after noticing it.

So you'd agree that it's not really live feeding, but irresponsible/careless ownership that's not safe for a ball python?

If so, I'd have to agree with you 100% on that one!

-adam

[Royal-y__Great]

I'd really like to see pics of a "ball python" with that kind of scaring from a single supervised feeding attempt.

-adam

if you look in the ball python care sheet on this site, in the feeding section, you will see this

Try your best to get your ball python on pre-killed food items. Live rodents can become very violent towards your snake, and cause massive amount of harm. Rats are very dangerous food items, and within seconds could tear your snake apart. No matter how closely you watch your snake, you would not be fast enough to prevent a sudden bite. Click the link below to see an example of what can happen when a keeper feeds live rodents. It is very gruesome, and something you might not want to see.

then under that you will see this link


http://ball-pythons.net/careimages/ballchew2.jpg


GRAPHIC IMAGE




so, even if you are watching it, then a rat can go to work pretty fast


im not saying that that particular incident happened under surpervision or not. it doesnt say.


it could


why risk it?

[Adam_Wysocki]

I'd really like to see pics of a "ball python" with that kind of scaring from a single supervised feeding attempt.

-adam

if you look in the ball python care sheet on this site, in the feeding section, you will see this

Try your best to get your ball python on pre-killed food items. Live rodents can become very violent towards your snake, and cause massive amount of harm. Rats are very dangerous food items, and within seconds could tear your snake apart. No matter how closely you watch your snake, you would not be fast enough to prevent a sudden bite. Click the link below to see an example of what can happen when a keeper feeds live rodents. It is very gruesome, and something you might not want to see.

then under that you will see this link


http://ball-pythons.net/careimages/ballchew2.jpg


GRAPHIC IMAGE




so, even if you are watching it, then a rat can go to work pretty fast


im not saying that that particular incident happened under surpervision or not. it doesnt say.


it could


why risk it?

That was certainly not from a supervised feeding. That was from a live rat left in with a ball python for way tooo long. Same thing can happen (ie ball python getting sick or killed) if you leave a PK or FT rat in way tooo long. That picture only offers evidence that there is risk in being a careless keeper, not that there is risk in feeding your ball python live food.

So, I ask again ... I'd really like to see pics of a "ball python" with that kind of scaring from a single supervised feeding attempt.

Why do you assume there is risk? Because a care sheet told you so? Do you even know who wrote the care sheet and what their actual experience is working with p. regius?

-adam

[Royal-y__Great]

first off.


why the quotation marks around ball python?


and how do you know for a fact that it was left unsurpervised for way too long? it doesnt say that.

if you leave a PK or FT rat in way tooo long

how does a rat thats dead do scars like that?


why do i assume theres risk? theres evidence showing us that theres risk from experiences. duh

[Adam_Wysocki]

first off.


why the quotation marks around ball python?

Because others in the thread started talking about other snakes. The basis of my experience is ball pythons and this thread started off talking about ball pythons. The quotes were a reminder.

and how do you know for a fact that it was left unsurpervised for way too long? it doesnt say that.

Because over the past 15 years I have rescued snakes in that condition and talked with owners about how they've gotten that way. I have also done tens of thousands of live feedings leaving rats in with snakes any where from 1 minute to as much as 12 hours. I have a strong base of experience which allows me to reasonably determine the time that a rat needs to do that much damage to a snake.

how does a rat thats dead do scars like that?

I never said scars or bites. I was specific when I said sick or dead. Please re-read my posts. A dead rodent begins to decay at a rapid rate in a warm humid enclosure like a ball python cage. The bacteria that rapidly develops over the course of a few days or even a week could be spread to the snakes water bowl by the natural action of the snake exploring it's take. Transferrance of the bacteria to the snake is then elementary. That kind of contamination if ingested could turn systemic and kill a ball python.

Not to mention the mold that will also develop cause respiratory problems and possibly death as well.

why do i assume there's risk? there's evidence showing us that there's risk from experiences. duh

Whose experiences? I'll say it again ... I've been feeding about 10,000 live meals a year for the last ten years to ball pythons and have never had a bite. Certainly not my experiences.

What evidence are you talking about? That picture above? You actually believe that was from a rat left with a ball pythong for an hour while the owner was observing?

I've heard all of the stories and seen all of the GRAPHIC IMAGES on the net (i've been around for a very long time) ... I don't consider them evidence of responsible live feedings in any way ... There were a couple of specific examples of ball pythons being bit while eating live rodents on this thread but when you compare them with the many many live feedings that are being done with success, there is just as much of a chance that your ball python could be injured by a surged heat source, a respiratory infection, tail closed in a cage top, or even a not completely thawed rodent.

And was the "duh" really necessary? Everyone on this thread has done so well treating this as a discussion of differing opinions and treating each other with respect. I think to start insulting people at this point is really uncalled for.

-adam

[NomadOfTheHills]

I once watched a rat get wacked into a wall by my manager's daughter, well, it didn't die. I almost knocked HER out.... and I think I could have, considering I probaly outweighed her by 100 punds... (im 16 shes nearly 30 so it wasnt like I wanted t knw out a little girl and I was like 50 lol)

She prceded to try and kill the rat by picking it up by the tail and then trowing it t the ground... I quit a few days later...