My "theory"

[Shrap]

I THINK the main point Adam was making, and I KNOW it was my point in this thread, is that the dangers of feeding live has been completely exaggerated over the years. I think we all know that feeding live comes with a risk. Yet if you use proper precautions you minimize the risk greatly.

What people need to keep in mind is that each and every one of us (snake keepers) have to make a decision on what feeding method works best for us. None of the three methods are right or wrong. Yet each and every one of them CAN BE DONE WRONG. As long as people are using proper procedures and are taking the necassary precautions, be it live, FT or PK, we should all be satisfied in knowing we are doing our best by our animals.

[Smulkin]

Dead mice don't bite. They don't pose a risk of tooth inflicted bite injury to your snake. How's that reckless?

I think we all know that feeding live comes with a risk.

THAT IS ALL that needs to be acknowledged. It seems that point was being actively refuted, however.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Yet each and every one of them CAN BE DONE WRONG. As long as people are using proper procedures and are taking the necassary precautions, be it live, FT or PK, we should all be satisfied in knowing we are doing our best by our animals.

OMG!!! ... YAY!!! .... There is hope in the world! :pray:

-adam (doin a little happy dance right now ... thanks Shrap)

[Marla]

Ahhhh .... Marla ... just found your post ... sorry I missed it, as it's a good one!

Thanks. I wondered why you had apparently chosen not to respond, I guess you just missed it.

Who's to say what "measure" of pain or suffering is tolerable. Certainly not I. There's no evidence of how a rodent "feels". It's like the whole argument about how would you like to die .... choking, heat attack, etc. I mean really ... I always say "I don't wanna die, but I know I have to, so what difference does it make." .... At the pet stores around here, the feeder rodents and the pet rodents are always seperate. When I need a rodent in a pinch and have to go the pet store and they're out of feeders, they won't even sell me the "pet" rats.

Yours is a good question, at least in a philosophical/contemplative sort of way, but I think when it comes down to it, time from beginning to ending of pain gives us a reasonable guess of amount of suffering and is the best guideline we have. It's not so much a question of how to die as how long does it hurt. If you asked 20 people whether they had to die (given these as their only choices) by poison gas in their sleep, by having their heads cut off, or by being put in a giant pressure cuff and slowly squeezed until their hearts stopped, lungs couldn't inhale, and blood couldn't flow from one body part to another, I would bet good money that almost all would pick one of the first two choices. I suppose there would be some masochists in the crowd who'd opt for the slow approach, but I doubt many mice are really into that. I could be wrong, though, who knows?

I'll give ya that, mice are nasty little fu*** .... well you know. But I've still never seen one attack a snake. This is a good point though because I feed the majority of my snakes rats and choose not to leave mice in with snakes overnight. I always reccomend no longer than an hour for newbies. As far as bad angles go, if thats a problem, feeding a little bit of a smaller prey item might be in order. Many people have this obsession with using large and medium rats that I simply cannot understand.

-adam

I had a adult bp that I had to give up a number of years ago when I moved and she was a good eater on live mice, 4 to 6 in a feeding but only one in the cage at a time. This was a 50" or so girl eating little 3" or so (body, not tail) mice, and sometimes she'd miss or get her angle wrong. Smaller prey items wouldn't have made it easier for her to hit them or get the angle right, I don't think. Fortunately she always won in the end, but sometimes mice are mean or just desperate and will act a bit loco to try and escape becoming dinner. If it were large rats she was missing her strike on or getting the angle wrong, there could have been a good bit more danger to her than with the little mice.

In fact, my biggest bp I have now (~48") came to me eating live medium rats, which I continued for the first few feedings, and one of her strikes was off and she coiled around the hips, which meant I had to use something (don't remember what, now) to get the rat's teeth out of her neck and hold them out of the way while she finished killing it. If I hadn't been there, it certainly could have done more damage than it did.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Dead mice don't bite. They don't pose a risk of tooth inflicted bite injury to your snake. How's that reckless?

Well, if you make the statement and then don't explain that if the rodent isn't 100% thawed out, unthawed internal organs once inside the snakes stomach can begin to decay and cause a bacterial infection that may turn systemic and comprimise the animal, you are being reckless.

THAT IS ALL that needs to be acknowledged. It seems that point was being actively refuted, however.

Please re-read my words, I never said that there is zero risk in feeding live. I've said that feeding live is safe. I advocated that a live rodent should be left in with the snake for no more than an hour (even though I personally leave some in overnight) and that the rodent and snake should be watched.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I could be wrong, though, who knows?

Exactly, and so could I. The debate really is philosophical. I often wonder if rodents (being natural prey items in nature) have some internal mechanism to deal with being captured and killed. Like some sort of sensory detachment to cope with their designed fate.

Smaller prey items wouldn't have made it easier for her to hit them or get the angle right, I don't think.

Good point .. too small would be a bad target as well.

Great posts Marla!

-adam

[Smulkin]

if the rodent isn't 100% thawed out etc

Pre-killed even - I wasn't touting f/t as the only way to go and don't think I stated such (I easily use pre-killled as often as f/t in the larger sizes of rats since we have yet to get a stand-alone freezer to house sufficient quantities).

Just trying to get the point across that there was a risk which seemed like pulling teeth. Yeah theres a risk.

You made a very good argument for the positive aspects and practicality of feeding live and I think everyone conceded those points and the whole thing has been discussed very amiably. I think most here would agree most of the bite injuries sustained occur on strike (mis-strike even if you will) and result in non-life-threatening or minor injuries such as I saw on the two young burms yesterday - the horrific pictures of multiply GNAWED snakes we see CLEARLY happened over a period of time whether that be 20 minutes or 24 hours and could NOT have happened given proper supervision. A nip from a mouse isnt going to result in those GINSU injuries, but a nip from a mouse can also happen quite fast on initial reaction from the mouse (soon enough it is struggling to BREATHE instead of using its mouth as a weapon) and can happen before any sort of intervention can take place unless you have your hands hovering so close as to be impractical for feeding. Is it common? No. Can is happen? Sure.

Just wanted to make sure anyone who wasn't ready to reach their own conclusion based on experience (personal or shared) knew that there was in fact a risk. What amount of risk is acceptable in something refered to as safe is far too debatable no matter how broadly applicable such a debate could be made to apply to "the changing world we live in"*.


*
(Sorry I love that phrase . . as if there were any other kind!)



I appreciate your responses - honestly. In reference to dealing with those impressive numbers, how many folks do you have help with the feeding activities - or do you have it scheduled across days?

[Marla]

I could be wrong, though, who knows?

Exactly, and so could I. The debate really is philosophical. I often wonder if rodents (being natural prey items in nature) have some internal mechanism to deal with being captured and killed. Like some sort of sensory detachment to cope with their designed fate.

Smaller prey items wouldn't have made it easier for her to hit them or get the angle right, I don't think.

Good point .. too small would be a bad target as well.

Great posts Marla!

-adam

Thanks for a good discussion, Adam. As they say, there's no wrong way to eat a Reese's and there's certainly more than one workable approach to keeping any kind of animal.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Just trying to get the point across that there was a risk which seemed like pulling teeth. Yeah there's a risk.

I think this was a little more painful than pulling teeth at times ... but a lot more fun!! :lol:

Just wanted to make sure anyone who wasn't ready to reach their own conclusion based on experience (personal or shared) knew that there was in fact a risk. What amount of risk is acceptable in something refered to as safe is far too debatable no matter how broadly applicable such a debate could be made to apply to "the changing world we live in"*.

I think any resonably intelligent person can conclude that mouse plus snake in a box has some type of chance of getting ugly one way or the other, don't you? I just wanted to make sure people understood that there are safe ways to feed live, just like there are safe ways to feed frozen (thawing for instance ... LOL).

I appreciate your responses - honestly. In reference to dealing with those impressive numbers, how many folks do you have help with the feeding activities - or do you have it scheduled across days?

LOL ... help? I wish ... I feed everyone myself, every Monday. Doesn't take as long as you think. Filling out the record cards of who ate what takes much longer. Now if I had to dangle 200 rodents on tongs ... then that would take some time.

Cleaning is another story (although no help there either), most of my time goes into cleaning the babies, they are the messiest.

-adam

[CTReptileRescue]

Ok here it goes
(You all knew it would come sooner or later..Lol)
As many of you know Rusty Reptiles always feeds frozen thawed or pre- killed prey.
I wanted to add before I get into this that I love to see a good debate, I respect and like what everyone has posted (whether I believe in it or not). So be it
Let me also say to his, his own. Do what works best for you. But there are a couple of notes I would like to make.
Someone stated that it would take longer to feed off prekilled prey to over 100 animals then feeding live prey.
I beg to differ, as the number of animals’ changes drastically on a weekly basis I must say that we have at least 100 animals here daily. We feed pre killed prey for many reasons (Like to hear it, here it goes):
1) It is allot easier for us to drop in a dead mouse on to a cleaned hide box top then to sit there and watch to ensure the mouse is killed and digested properly. That would just take way to long. Adam I do believe it was you who mentioned having to sit and wiggle the mouse with hemostats to entice the snake, 99% of our animals will eat it still, the ones that do not are usually the arboreal species such as the GTP’s ATB’s and carpet species. They will normally take it within seconds of “dangling” the prey item.
2) I feel (and has been scientifically proven) that not all snakes in the wild will actually catch the first prey they are aiming for. They do get away, but in captivity your herps are kept in boxes so be it they can be as nice and as big as possible but if you face the facts it is still a box. The prey doesn’t have a chance to escape as they do in the wild, Thus my point being that it is in no way a “natural” way to feed.
3) It is easier and a lower cost for us to purchase prey items in bulk. Please remember we normally have a large quantity of animals to feed and in this we have many size prey items to feed them.
4) Has a rabbit or a large rat ever bitten you? I’ll tell you it hurts I have the scars to prove it. There is no way I would subject my animals to that bite no matter what the odds are. Plus there is no way I would ever through a twenty pound live turkey in with a 250lb Burmese python. (Like stated before I do not find it natural), plus to be honest the idea of a live twenty pound turkey in my house isn’t that pleasant.
5) I wanted to comment on something someone said about parasites and the relation to freezing prey items:
ROUNDWORMS: have an indirect life cycle and require an intermediate host. Roundworms are acquired by digestion said intermediate hosts, such as amphibians, fish, rodents and marsupials
STOMACH WORMS (mostly in lizards eating ant) There is again an indirect life cycle with ants as the intermediate hosts. Many Horned Lizards are infested with these parasites.
HEPATIC WORMS: (Capillaria SP.) These parasites also have an indirect lifecycle and are acquired by ingesting the intermediate host.
FILARIAL NEMATODES: Oswaldofilaria, Foleyella, Macdonaldius) Are rarely found and rarely diagnosed properly in our herp friends. These have an indirect lifecycle and are transferred by arthropods such as ticks and mites and live in the bloodstream of the host.
CRYPTOSPORIDIA: (the keepers who know such a protozoan shudder at the thought) The life of such Protozoan is not completely known but many researchers including Dr. Klingenburg, DVM, and DR. Zyra DVM feel that infected mice can transmit the disease to snakes that eat them.
If your food sources are the intermediate hosts stated above, you should either Freeze your prey items or de-parasitize your food colonies first
There are more but that I will leave for another thread
6) Sadly here at Rusty Reptiles we have seen our fair share of abused animals, which does include a large Burmese python eaten alive, with such bad wounds he had to be euthanised. There is also Eye cap the ball python that was eaten alive by a gerbil. Luckily we received eye cap in time and had to do multiple surgeries to save her. 95% of her spine was exposed, so be it an extreme case, but not another rescue I would like to have to go through. And yes both cases were do to the negligence of the previous owners; I will not argue that fact.
But what I will say is that the above reasons are why we here feed pre killed or F/T prey.
For convenience, safety, prices, and piece of mind
Rusty