My "theory"

[Adam_Wysocki]

green_man wrote:

I understand the chances are low, but when there is an alternative that works just as well, without that small risk, you should take it

Just because it works just as well for you, does not make it work just as well for everyone. I think it's unfair to say "it's better to feed FT or PK cause it works just as well" when you don't know the feeding habits of other people snake.

Someone that's been feeding their snake live for the last 12 months because they won't take PK might come on here and feel like they are doing something wrong or that people on the internet think they are putting the snake at risk and are a bad keeper for feeding live when it's just not true.

I said "WHEN there is an alternative that works just as well."

I have always told people to feed pre killed or frozen thawed unless the snake will not take it. In that case, feed live closely supervised.

Hey, that's cool ... I tell friends that I sell snakes to to feed live if they have access to it and FT if they don't ... nothing wrong with either way!

This has been a great discussion!

-adam

[Marla]

The only other person on this thread that has offered anything close to empirical evidence to support their belief is Jeanne.

I take it you didn't read my post.

[Smulkin]

right to say the "you believe" there is risk in feeding live, I have the right to say that "I believe" that there isn't.

That's fine but then let the evidence supporting each fall where it may. This should be more empirical i think. Clearly snakes have been bitten/mauled/killed etc etc etc by LIVE feeds - what ill effect to health have they suffered due to DEAD prey? As much as I respect your opinion I don't think this is a good topic to relegate to the fates in the name of "faith" and "belief".

My statements about the size of my collection and the numbers of live feedings that I've done are made in support of my "belief".

It almost sounds like you are concluding based SOLELY on your personal experience that there is no risk in feeding live, and it is the logic with that approach that i find problematic. Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

[Adam_Wysocki]

The only other person on this thread that has offered anything close to empirical evidence to support their belief is Jeanne.

I take it you didn't read my post.

I probably didn't and just don't remeber ... I'll go back and look.

[Adam_Wysocki]

That's fine but then let the evidence supporting each fall where it may. This should be more empirical i think. Clearly snakes have been bitten/mauled/killed etc etc etc by LIVE feeds - what ill effect to health have they suffered due to DEAD prey? As much as I respect your opinion I don't think this is a good topic to relegate to the fates in the name of "faith" and "belief".

Smulkin, I could spout off about vitamin deficiencies in frozen rodents, refrozen rodents causing stomach rot, other internal damage from not fully thawed animals, esohpageal damage from PK animals claws, and on. These are all things that I have heard and been told over the years just like many people have been told bad things about feeding live. I chose not to, because I don't want to disuade anyone from doing what works for them. Or make anyone question the level of care they are giving their animals. My only point is that feeding live prey is safe. I used the word "belief" to try and not come off like some know it all. I'm really trying to just share my experience here. I'm not some ball python "guru" or expert, just a guy thats been caring and breeding a lot of animals for a lot of years. Between you and I :wink: .... I "KNOW" that feeding live is safe, I substituted know with belief in that post in the interest of harmony :lol:

It almost sounds like you are concluding based SOLELY on your personal experience that there is no risk in feeding live, and it is the logic with that approach that i find problematic.

Well, I talk about my personal experience because I can prove it. You or anyone else is cetainly invited over to watch/help me feed and examine my collection. I don't believe in dropping names or spouting experiences that I've been told or heard about. If it helps large ball python breeders like Ralph Davis (600 - 800 animals a week), Brian@BHB (1,000 animals a week), Kev & Kara@NERD (god knows how many ... 1 bazillion maybe), and many many more all feed live and I am sure the numbers of bites or injuried are minimal (if any) or at least comparible to any other accidental injury in a sample of the same size.

Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

Good point ... and at some point reasonable people can conclude that an infinitesimal statistical anomaly for all intents and purposes is nonexistent.


-adam

[green_man]

it would be interesting to get KLG's input...

[Adam_Wysocki]

Ahhhh .... Marla ... just found your post ... sorry I missed it, as it's a good one!

If you are breeding prey, yes it would just become food for something else, but pet store rodents often become pets if not fed to reptiles. Further, cervical dislocation generally means ~1 sec of pain, whacking generally takes up to a few seconds to kill or desensitize (with a second whack killing), CO2 depending on concentration generally knocks out within 10 seconds at most, and constriction can take up to or even more than a minute, depending on the angle of capture, intensity of the squeeze, etc. I'm not saying that live=evil or anything, but it is a slower and more painful way to die for the rodent.

Who's to say what "measure" of pain or suffering is tolerable. Certainly not I. There's no evidence of how a rodent "feels". It's like the whole argument about how would you like to die .... choking, heat attack, etc. I mean really ... I always say "I don't wanna die, but I know I have to, so what difference does it make." .... At the pet stores around here, the feeder rodents and the pet rodents are always seperate. When I need a rodent in a pinch and have to go the pet store and they're out of feeders, they won't even sell me the "pet" rats.

I have seen both mice and rats fight to free themselves once struck if hit at a bad angle and constricted around the lower body -- biting on the head repeatedly until stopped by the keeper, and I have seen mice run and attack a snake behind the head when it missed on the first strike. I don't suppose I've witnessed quite "thousands" of live feedings, but it didn't take that many to observe these behaviors, even if they are less common than cowering. This is why it is important to supervise, not because a leg might get caught on a tooth or something.

I'll give ya that, mice are nasty little fu*** .... well you know. But I've still never seen one attack a snake. This is a good point though because I feed the majority of my snakes rats and choose not to leave mice in with snakes overnight. I always reccomend no longer than an hour for newbies. As far as bad angles go, if thats a problem, feeding a little bit of a smaller prey item might be in order. Many people have this obsession with using large and medium rats that I simply cannot understand.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

it would be interesting to get KLG's input...

LOL ... Sounds good to me!

[Smulkin]

My only point is that feeding live prey is safe.

And my only point is making that an unqualified blanket statement and discounting "statistical anomalies" that are well documented and in effect blowing off any potential risks seems rather reckless.

[Adam_Wysocki]

And my only point is making that an unqualified blanket statement and discounting "statistical anomalies" that are well documented and in effect blowing off any potential risks seems rather reckless.

Saying "it's safer to feed frozen thawed" is also an unqualified blanket statement that discounts statistical anomalies that are well documented.

Is that reckless as well?