My "theory"

[Smulkin]

My point is that if someone personally has never had a snake INJURED by being fed a live rodent how can they tell other people that they shouldn't feed live because their snakes could get hurt or because there is risk?

Right - because there is a risk.

That's all I am trying to say in the end, bro - that there is a risk and folks should be aware that it is not an imaginary one. That's all I am trying to say. I respect your opinion and that you are raising valid points regarding expediency etc in caring for such numbers - in your shoes I could not bring myself to distro 200+ f/t by myself - it would be entirely impractical.

I am EXTREMELY relieved that we've made it this far in this exchange without anyone screaming about their "mad herp skillz0rz" or flaming, bashing and denigrating others for their opinions and practices so kudos to all in that regard.

(if you want to lighten your load I'd be glad to take a few off your hands hehe - Smynx has no idea how close she came to burm ownership after I saw the two who'd been nibbled in the store yesterday)

[Adam_Wysocki]

But, I have a sister who has a bp, her bp was bitten, she ignored it apparently and thought the snake would be OK cause it seemed superficial, a few weeks later an HUGE abcess appeared at the bite site. She took her snake in to the vet, and it needed to have the abcess drained (minor surgical thing) and had to be on anti biotics after that. So- she incurred a vet bill that was not neccessary and suffering to the snake.

It sucks that it happened, but your reference is lacking too much detail to be persuasive ... How long was the rodent in with the snake, was it appropriately sized, etc?

I think it is good that you have not had problems with live feeding with all the snakes you feed, but how do you actually know your snake is not getting bitten (most superficial wounds are hard to see, esp if there is no blood)if you leave a live rodent in with it and walk away over night? I am not attacking you verbally, just curious if you really are sure none of your snakes have been bitten and maybe you have been lucky enough that there's been no abcesses that came from them.

Sometimes overnight yes. And I am 100% sure that my snakes are not getting bitten. I handle and inspect my snakes constantly ... always looking for pieces of stuck shed, examining their patterns, weighing females, checking males for sperm plugs ... I know each one of the snakes in my collection in detail and take a lot of pride in the time I spend with them. If there was a scratch on one, I would know it.

I agree with you that there is many ways of feeding, and we all have to do what we have to do, but there is a real danger to feeding live and I think all keepers that do so, should openly admit, there is always that possibility of your snake getting injured.

If I had evidence to support your statement I would be the first person to admit it, but the numbers speak for themselves.

There are many things in this world that have risk even if it is very slight but that is no reason to advocate not doing them. Every year there is an extremely small number of people that are injured or even die choking on an aspirn, but that's not going to stop the general public from taking them.

Not sure if I misunderstand this... does that mean some of your snakes are eating 2 or 3 times a day, like breakfast and dinner or breakfast, lunch and dinner? :wink:

Yup. sometimes with pancake syrup. :mrgreen:

So, are you saying that yes you could win the lottery, and yes, realistically, your snake could be bitten?

Nice try slick ... LOL .... but after 33 years on this earth, I can guarentee that no matter how many lottery tickets I buy, I will not win :p

How have you had a snake get burned with one of those?

Had the screen top off the tank and the CHE and housing sitting on it's side on a table. The snake was sitting about a foot away on the table too while i was changing out some newspaper ... then I smelt something funny. Talk about upset ... I was a wreck after that one.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

That's all I am trying to say in the end, bro - that there is a risk and folks should be aware that it is not an imaginary one. That's all I am trying to say.

And all I'm trying to say is that anyone can claim there is risk in ANYTHING. Feeding live is no different than feeding any other way. You have to be responsible. If you leave a PK or FT rodent in your snakes cage for 2 weeks it will kill your snake from the bacteria. There's some risk, but people are smarter than that. Well, people can be smart with feeding live too!

(if you want to lighten your load I'd be glad to take a few off your hands hehe - Smynx has no idea how close she came to burm ownership after I saw the two who'd been nibbled in the store yesterday)

Anytime you want to come out and help on "big cleaning day" (when I wash all the boxes, water bowl, and hides) you're more than welcome. I'd even send you home with a gift! WV isn't too far and I could ALWAYS use a hand. LOL

-adam

[Smynx]

I like to believe that people in general have good judgement and ask questions before jumping in. At least that's been my experience in this hobby.

Unfortunately, Adam, that's not always true. Not all newcomers, or "newbies" as you call them (I personally don't like that label), do a lot of research before buying reptiles. Most "newbies" get their snakes from pet stores and are told to feed the snake a mouse every week or so. Pet stores also like to sell newbies heat rocks and don't know the least thing about humidity requirements. The members we have here come here looking for advice and wanting to learn as much as they can about their animals. Our job is to give them as much information as we can so that they can become responsible, experienced herpers. So it's not that don't have good judgment, it's just that they don't always have all the information they need in order to exercise good judgment.

[Jeanne]

Adam Says:
It sucks that it happened, but your reference is lacking too much detail to be persuasive ... How long was the rodent in with the snake, was it appropriately sized, etc?

Her snake at the time, was exactly 28 inches, it was left in with a mouse of appropriate size relative to what it should be eating. The bp also had never missed a meal, was a great feeder. My sister left the rodent in over night because she said she did not have time to sit and "babysit" a snakes feeding, but she did also put apple and seed in for the mouse, so I know it did not go after the snake cause it was hungry. The snake was bit during constriction. And I know this because my sister happened to come home and walk by the cage the min the snake decided it was going to go after the mouse to eat.

[green_man]

I think we would be niave to believe everything we hear, but I hear many examples of snakes being injured by live prey from people I know and trust. Its not just seeing a pic or two on the internet.

I dont have to see it to believe it does happen. Just like I dont have to see a case of IBD before I believe it exists...

You are saying dont believe it until you see it or have proof, but you are expecting people to NOT believe it based on your experience. I would like to think that newbies are smart enough to say "better safe then sorry".

I understand the chances are low, but when there is an alternative that works just as well, without that small risk, you should take it

[BallPythonBabe448]

If you want to see what a live mouse, yes mouse, can do to a ball python, click on the link below.
CLICK WITH CAUTION!

http://www.proexotics.com/graphics/b...ive_prey_1.jpg

[Adam_Wysocki]

You are saying dont believe it until you see it or have proof, but you are expecting people to NOT believe it based on your experience. I would like to think that newbies are smart enough to say "better safe then sorry".

I am not expecting people to believe me at all. As a matter of fact I am not "expecting" anything at all. I'm not telling people to go out and start feeding live or that live is better or that FT or PK is bad. People should do what works for them. But, just as you have the right to say the "you believe" there is risk in feeding live, I have the right to say that "I believe" that there isn't. My statements about the size of my collection and the numbers of live feedings that I've done are made in support of my "belief". The only other person on this thread that has offered anything close to empirical evidence to support their belief is Jeanne.

I understand the chances are low, but when there is an alternative that works just as well, without that small risk, you should take it

Just because it works just as well for you, does not make it work just as well for everyone. I think it's unfair to say "it's better to feed FT or PK cause it works just as well" when you don't know the feeding habits of other people snake.

Someone that's been feeding their snake live for the last 12 months because they won't take PK might come on here and feel like they are doing something wrong or that people on the internet think they are putting the snake at risk and are a bad keeper for feeding live when it's just not true.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

If you want to see what a live mouse, yes mouse, can do to a ball python, click on the link below.
CLICK WITH CAUTION!

http://www.proexotics.com/graphics/b...ive_prey_1.jpg

BallPythonBabe448,

That picture has been around for years. Do you understand that the reason that ball python was chewed up like that was because the rodent was left in with it, without food, for at least a week and probably more?

That is not an argument to not feed live, that's an argument for having the owner of the snake charged with 2 counts of animal cruelty.

That will not happen if you put a live rodent in with a snake for an hour to feed it. If the snake doesn't eat in an hour ... take the rodent out.

Pretty simple.

-adam

[green_man]

green_man wrote:

I understand the chances are low, but when there is an alternative that works just as well, without that small risk, you should take it

Just because it works just as well for you, does not make it work just as well for everyone. I think it's unfair to say "it's better to feed FT or PK cause it works just as well" when you don't know the feeding habits of other people snake.

Someone that's been feeding their snake live for the last 12 months because they won't take PK might come on here and feel like they are doing something wrong or that people on the internet think they are putting the snake at risk and are a bad keeper for feeding live when it's just not true.

I said "WHEN there is an alternative that works just as well."

I have always told people to feed pre killed or frozen thawed unless the snake will not take it. In that case, feed live closely supervised.