My "theory"

[green_man]

I see those as valid reasons for feed live, I agree with you there. All I am saying is for people owning a few snakes, that WILL eat frozen thawed with no problems, I will personaly encourage them to do so if not purely for the fact that freezing kills parasites.

[Adam_Wysocki]

purely for the fact that freezing kills parasites.

I hate to do this to you, but that's also a myth ... It is EXTREMELY rare for transference of parasites to occur between a rodent and a ball python. Snake mites can be common, but since snake mites do not actually prey on rodents the transference is strictly coincidental and could just as likely come from a water bowl, hide box, or bedding purchased at the same place that your rodent was.

As far as internal parasites are concerned, again, transference is rare. There are actually no documented cases that I am aware of and I even went as far as contacting the AARAVA several years ago to see if they had any information. That said, it IS well documented that amoebo-flagellates can survive freezing within a host body. I am sure that there are also species of worms that can survive freezing and can research that for you if you'd like.

Sorry about that.

-adam

[green_man]

sorry for what?
this is turning out to be an informative discussion...
Now you have me interested in researching the matter more...
I still beleive there is risk in feeding live. I am happy you have had no problems...

[Jeanne]

OK, just want to remind everyone, lets not start argueing over this topic, and I would also like to say, if you do a search on site, you will find many threads about this same thing. Now it is my turn to give my 2 cents worth.

I understand there are many ways keepers "decide" to feed thier snake collection. And that "some" bp's or other snakes wont eat anything but live. And, thats fine too.

But, as far as the comment being made about the pic online of the bp that was chewed up horribly and the person also stated they have never heard of any snake getting bit, muchless thier own. And why would someones word of mouth influence another not to feed live. Well, I have had snakes since I was 10, I am 31 now. In my collection now, I have a boa that eats p/k, I dont mind killing the rodent for him. Think about it, something had to die to feed us humans right. But as far as live feeding, I have 3 snakes I have tried to switch over to p/k or f/t.. I have tried since I got the snakes. Since none of my bp's will eat either p/k or f/t, I must feed live. I will tell you from my experience, they can get bit and even tho your snakes have not as of yet, there is a real possibility. I NEVER leave the live rodent in the snakes cage over night, not going to take that risk, but I will say this, one of my bp's have gotten bitten while constricting its prey, even with me standing right there to watch and interfere with the biting the prey does. Now, mind you, I was able to stop my bp from being injured badly, but still, she got bit. After she got the rodent down, I had to put neosporin on her wound to keep it from getting infected, this had to be done for days, till it healed up. The wound itself was not deep, but the rodent did drawn some blood. I felt horrible after that, and still do. I would much rather all my snakes be on p/k or f/t just for thier saftey and my piece of mind. When I am asked about feeding methods, I always say that p/k or f/t is the best way to go, esp. for new keepers and thier snakes, because it spares the keeper the bad feelings for the snake after being bitten (guilt is not fun to experience when you know it was your fault anyhow), and a possible vet bill for a snake who has an infected wound that otherwise would not have gotten it to begin with had the snake been eating p/k or f/t.

[Adam_Wysocki]

OK, just want to remind everyone, lets not start argueing over this topic

I didn't think anyone was arguing, it thought this was going great!

I will tell you from my experience, they can get bit and even tho your snakes have not as of yet, there is a real possibility.

I have had 200+ snakes fed every week for the last year, some of them two or three feedings in a day. Thats easily 10,000 live feedings in 2004 give or take. If it's a possibility then when's it going to happen? That 10,000 feedings is just for the last year, now factor in the 10 thousand from the year before that and the year before that. Ya know, winning the lottery is a possibility too, but I'm pretty realistic about my chances.

I respect your 21 years experience with snakes, I've got a little more than that myself and like you have seen a lot over the years. I'm also very sorry that your snake took a small bite, but it did survive right? Your three live eaters have never been chewed up or needed surgery or anti-biotics or killed? I closed the tip of a snakes tail in the screen top of an aquarium once and it had a small cut, but that doesn't mean that I tell people that there is risk in using aquariums. I've had snakes burned accidentally on CHE, I would never tell people that they shouldn't use those because of the potential risk.

I would much rather share my experience and tell people that they can be successful either way if they excercise caution and take good care of their animals.

There is no more risk in feeding a ball python live prey then there is in the general keeping of any animal.

-adam

[Smynx]

I would much rather share my experience and tell people that they can be successful either way if they excercise caution and take good care of their animals.

Ah ha! And there is the key! Exercising caution and taking good care of your animals.

My main worry was that someone would read "It's okay to feed live prey" and think they could just throw a mouse in with their snake for an indefinite amount of time and not keep an eye on things and everything would be fine. It's important to be cautious and aware of what's happening with your snake. For instance, if the snake is getting ready to shed and it's eye's are clouded over, or if the snake's vision is impaired by dents or wrinkles as Angela's is at the moment, then obviously you wouldn't want to throw a live mouse in with it, especially if it's a very active mouse.

Adam, we certainly appreciate you being here and sharing your years of experience with us, but many of our members are new to snake keeping, and it's a good idea to keep them in mind when you're posting, especially on an issue like this one.

[Smulkin]

no

Edit: that was abrupt. I disagree and all the reasons have been posted.

Chances of live mouse injuring your snake vs chances of dead mouse injuring your snake would likely be polar opposites. The difference between the two is inarguable despite any anecdotal evidence of extreme rare cases (protruding mouse rib eviscerates snake ZOMG!! etc).

Just because it CAN happen doesn't mean it WILL. But you can eliminate that CAN.

But if you'd rather remove that crapshoot from the equation . . . .

F/T allows buying bulk and storing odor-free and not having to feed them to boot.

Pet store yesterday for crickets - two beauty lil burm albino babies, one looked like it had mud or mulch on its head and the girl working there saw my furled brow and told me point blank "mouse did it - got the other one too". They are fed supervised since these babies are the result of the owners personal breeding stock and he's still primal on caring for them (hehe you should see his Beardie regimen and how he hammers employees to follow it). Every once in a while an extra "feisty" mouse just doesnt agree with dying - go figure. Both snakes were a bit torn up but otherwise ok (bite near the lip on one looked like it might be trouble down the road) even though the worse of the two took a hit right smack on the top of the head. Injuries arent really all that rare and you will be hard pressed to find a keeper readily admit to injuries of this kind as it is rather viewed as a self-inflicted black eye. While you can easily make a very good argument about why you should NOT feed live i have yet to hear a compelling one on why you SHOULD feed live.

But to each his own

EDIT2: It filtered out "cr4pshoot" !?!?

[Jeanne]

Adam Says:
Your three live eaters have never been chewed up or needed surgery or anti-biotics or killed?

My 3 live eaters have not been chewed up to the point of that pic thats online of the bp who was chewed very badly, nor needed surgery or antibiotics. But, I have a sister who has a bp, her bp was bitten, she ignored it apparently and thought the snake would be OK cause it seemed superficial, a few weeks later an HUGE abcess appeared at the bite site. She took her snake in to the vet, and it needed to have the abcess drained (minor surgical thing) and had to be on anti biotics after that. So- she incurred a vet bill that was not neccessary and suffering to the snake.

I think it is good that you have not had problems with live feeding with all the snakes you feed, but how do you actually know your snake is not getting bitten (most superficial wounds are hard to see, esp if there is no blood)if you leave a live rodent in with it and walk away over night? I am not attacking you verbally, just curious if you really are sure none of your snakes have been bitten and maybe you have been lucky enough that theres been no abcesses that came from them.

I agree with you that there is many ways of feeding, and we all have to do what we have to do, but there is a real danger to feeding live and I think all keepers that do so, should openly admit, there is always that possibility of your snake getting injured.


Adam Says:
I have had 200+ snakes fed every week for the last year, some of them two or three feedings in a day.

Not sure if I misunderstand this... does that mean some of your snakes are eating 2 or 3 times a day, like breakfast and dinner or breakfast, lunch and dinner? :wink:


Adam Says:
Ya know, winning the lottery is a possibility too, but I'm pretty realistic about my chances.

So, are you saying that yes you could win the lottery, and yes, realistically, your snake could be bitten?


Adam Says:
I respect your 21 years experience with snakes, I've got a little more than that myself and like you have seen a lot over the years.

I too respect your years of working with herps. I think it is always neat to be able to work with these animals and have the knowledge from working with them.


Adam Says:
I closed the tip of a snakes tail in the screen top of an aquarium once and it had a small cut, but that doesn't mean that I tell people that there is risk in using aquariums.

Ouch- poor thing. But no, that dont mean to tell someone not to use aquariums.


Adam Says:
I've had snakes burned accidentally on CHE, I would never tell people that they shouldn't use those because of the potential risk.

How have you had a snake get burned with one of those? I use them for several of my species, and never had one get burned, but my CHE is not inside the enclosure either. I would not ever tell anyone not to use a CHE, but I do warn not to put them in the enclosure.[/b]

[Adam_Wysocki]

F/T allows buying bulk and storing odor-free and not having to feed them to boot.

.....

i have yet to hear a compelling one on why you SHOULD feed live.

I have my live rodents delivered once a week (in bulk) ... no odor and no feeding to boot.

I am not arguing or even suggesting that anyone SHOULD feed live, I think that you're missing the point.

That said I have pointed out several reasons why I feel live feeding is advantageous (better more consisten feeding response, less time consuming, animals instinctual preference, reusable food items (less waste) ... etc)

My point is that if someone personally has never had a snake INJURED by being fed a live rodent how can they tell other people that they shouldn't feed live because their snakes could get hurt or because there is risk? Because someone told them it is true? Because they saw a pic of a chewed up snake on the intenet and do not know the story behind the scenes? Because their local pet store has a snake in it with a bite on the lip? That's like me telling people that they should take the bus instead of drive in a car because I saw an accident on the highway.

For every injury, horror story, or internet picture there are millions of successful live feedings! As a matter of fact I think it's pretty safe to say that more snakes in captivity are fed live than FT or PK by an order of magnitude when you consider all of the breeding operations out there.

I'm not arguing against feeding FT or PK. I'm not even encouraging people to feed live. Just trying to relay the truth.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

Adam, we certainly appreciate you being here and sharing your years of experience with us, but many of our members are new to snake keeping, and it's a good idea to keep them in mind when you're posting, especially on an issue like this one.

I understand that and respect that. I guess I give newbies more credit than I should? I like to believe that people in general have good judgement and ask questions before jumping in. At least that's been my experience in this hobby.

-adam