My "theory"

[gen]

No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident that can happen in a captive environment.

-adam

I don't think the issue is whether live feeding accidents happen with more or less frequency than other kinds of accidents in captivity. We're comparing live vs. dead feedings. What seems to be apparent to me is that more accidents happen with live feedings than with dead. I know you mentioned somewhere things that could go wrong with frozen thawed or prekilled mice/rats. But has anyone here ever actually had problems with this? We've heard various accounts of snakes being injured from live feedings. So it seems to me that feeding dead prey is safer than live. If you have circumstances in which you need to feed live prey, it sounds like it can be done somewhat safely, but I still believe there is some risk involved. F/t or p/k still sounds like the safer option to me, if that is possible for your pet.

By the way, I'm glad that you've been able to feed live to so many snakes for so long without any problems or injuries. But just because its never happened to you doesn't convince me that won't happen.

[Shrap]

I don't think those of us that feed live are trying to convince anyone of anything, other than feeding live is not as dangerous as too many people make it out to be.

I still remember when a bunch of people were running around demonizing UTHs for burning up snakes. All because of a few stories and a couple of pictures. Yet when used properly and responsibly it is nearly risk free using a UTH. Same with feeding live. Is there risk??? Yes. Can you minimize it to the point of it being nearly risk free? Yes.

That is all we are saying folks. Is that feeding live is not bad, is not wrong and can be done safely.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Adam no not all of them were good feeders on f/t from day one but I have had no problem switching animals within a few feedings from fresh killed to frozen thawed

That's awesome that you've been as lucky as you have. Over the years I have seen many failed attempts to "switch over" ball pythons, in my own collection and others.

Even Smynx conceded that balls that are "switched over" can be picky eaters:

I prefer a breeder that starts snakes off on frozen/thawed prey. It makes for much less picky eaters.

A good many is in the neiborhood of 10-15 times in my own collection and Ive seen it happen in others collections as well probly 4-5 times (imo one time is to many) the worst I saw was a BCI and a large rat at a pet shop the boa over shot his aim hung the rat with its bottom jaw and coiled any way the rat the proceded to( front end completly free) knaw away at the boa lot of blood and deep mouth wounds this was in seconds of the rat being dropped in to the cage ..shop keeper standing by quiclky reacted but there was more damage done allready than I would want to deal with in my own collection
No they werent all ball pythons (but when does chance pick a species)
I feed frozen because it works for me and I feel better about doing so

So for the purposes of this discussion and to help get a better handle on the numbers, how many of those 14-20 incidents were with ball pythons?

I can not talk specifically to "chance" or other species, but I will jump up and down and insist that ball pythons specifically do an EXCELLENT job of eating live prey without incident.

-adam

[Smynx]

Adam, you forgot to quote the rest of my statement:

All the snakes I have that have had nothing but frozen/thawed food are excellent eaters and have never missed a feeding unless their eyes were clouded over during a shed.

[Adam_Wysocki]

We're comparing live vs. dead feedings.

That may be what YOU are doing, but I am trying to shed some light on the myth that there is risk in live feeding. By understanding that, you will see that examining risk in other aspects of captive husbandry is relavent.

I know you mentioned somewhere things that could go wrong with frozen thawed or prekilled mice/rats. But has anyone here ever actually had problems with this?

Certainly. There have been incidenets documented with the AARAV of gastrointestinal infections resulting from rodents not being thawed properly. I really prefer not to talk about things like that though, because unlike many who seem to be against live feedings I choose not to sensationalize a rare occorance that may sway someone from choosing a feeding method that works for them. I'd rather focus on the positive aspects of FT, PK, and live feedings!

like it can be done somewhat safely

10,000 feedings a year without incident is "somewhat" safe? ... LOL

By the way, I'm glad that you've been able to feed live to so many snakes for so long without any problems or injuries. But just because its never happened to you doesn't convince me that won't happen.

So you're saying that I've just been lucky? ... I really wish I had that kind of luck ... It hasn't happened and it won't happen because I am careful, controlled, responsible, and because under those circumstances feeding live is safe.


-adam

[Smulkin]

I think that statment is debatable (i really don't like the word arguable) as we've seen. No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident that can happen in a captive environment.

Then I have some bridges to sell you. Dead rats don't bite and the most IMMEDIATE risk your snake faces from prey is mechanical biting damage - some people would rather remove that from the equation and regardless of any other possibilities they are doing so in the interest of their herp. Given the choice between a BP who's been transitioned to f/t and one geared to take live how many folks would not opt for the former when making a purchase?

[Adam_Wysocki]

Given the choice between a BP who's been transitioned to f/t and one geared to take live how many folks would not opt for the former when making a purchase?

LOL ... How many captive bred hatchling ball pythons have you gotten to take their first meal? I've got bad news for you, but almost all of them are started on live and then transitioned to f/t. It is extremely rare that a ball python will take a FT meal as it's first.

If you have some type of experience or evidence to refute this, I'd really like to hear it.

If you can name a couple of breeders that you think are starting their hatchlings on FT I'd really like to talk to them .... LOL

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

Dead rats don't bite and the most IMMEDIATE risk your snake faces from prey is mechanical biting damage - some people would rather remove that from the equation and regardless of any other possibilities they are doing so in the interest of their herp.

I guess that when I feed animals valued at $15,000, $25,000, and $50,000 live food, I'm not acting in their interest?

That was kinda a personal jab at people feeding live wouldn't ya think?

At least I've never tried to imply that people feeding FT or PK were doing things "wrong" are not caring correctly for their animals.

-adam

[Smulkin]

I NEVER claimed any were started on f/t. In fact I think I used the phrase transitioned to in the statement you quoted. And yes, certainly I'd take one who's already on f/t than one who has only taken live. Refute away.

[Smulkin]

I guess that when I feed animals valued at $15,000, $25,000, and $50,000 live food, I'm not acting in their interest?

Now you are actively reaching erroneous conclusions through bad logic. Because that is part of their rationale for feeding live in no way reflects on your practices.

That was kinda a personal jab at people feeding live wouldn't ya think?

Not at all and I'm amazed you would take it that way.

At least I've never tried to imply that people feeding FT or PK were doing things "wrong" are not caring correctly for their animals.

By extension of the logic you just employed (by turning my statement into a perceived "personal jab") I think it could be taken that way.