My "theory"

[Adam_Wysocki]

I once watched a rat get wacked into a wall by my manager's daughter, well, it didn't die. I almost knocked HER out.... and I think I could have, considering I probaly outweighed her by 100 punds... (im 16 shes nearly 30 so it wasnt like I wanted t knw out a little girl and I was like 50 lol)

She prceded to try and kill the rat by picking it up by the tail and then trowing it t the ground... I quit a few days later...

I'm not a big fan of "whacking" in order to dispatch live rodents. Fortunately, ball pythons are amazingly efficient at killing their prey! It's what they're "designed" to do

-adam

[Smulkin]

Inarguably dead = safER than live prey for in light of all inherent risks. I think that's all that was trying to be established.

[Jeanne]

OK, once again, I remind everyone that this thread is for conversational purposes and does not need to get out of hand, should it, this thread will be locked, and any other threads that may try to continue this subject after that will also be locked or deleted.

We all have different opinions on this subject, but lets not get personal, mean and hateful toward eachother.


I think what is important here to remember is this:

yes , you have many feedings experiences based on your numbers (those of us who have many snakes), but you must also consider this is only one forum, and we are not hearing about more bad experiences that have occured out there in other sites where they have been mentioned and it is impossible to gather the data unless you went to x amount of other sites and polled x amount of people from those sites, added all the #'s for live feedings with injuries and #'s of live feedings without injuries. Then you would likely get a "scientific" or "statistical" count on the reality of live feeding issues. I personally think, "scientifically" or "statistically" whatever you want to call it, you will find it is a 50/50 percent chance that your snake may or may not get bit. Meaning- there is a possibility. Some of you may wish to aknowledge this fact, some may not.. all in all, in the end, it is your personal choice and should something happen to anyones snakes it would be on that persons conscience and haunt only them..hopefully, whoever it is, they will learn from that lesson and make changes.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I personally think, "scientifically" or "statistically" whatever you want to call it, you will find it is a 50/50 percent chance that your snake may or may not get bit.

How do you figure 50/50? There is no data anywhere to even remotely suggest that it could be this high. The small sample on this thread indicates about a 10 in 100,000 (thats being generous with the data provided) or .01% chance when dealing with p regius. I think even taking into account numbers that could potentially be gathered from other sources, when compared to actual live feedings done by breeders who have collections numbering higher than 500 and produce hundreds of babies a year the number could actually get lower.

I would put this number right in line with the same chance of a snake getting a URI, stomatis, or skin blisters. All are tragedies that certainly CAN happen, but definitely WILL NOT under the proper care and supervision.

It would be ashame to see this thread get locked ... I think the discussion is valuable and given the 50 or so supportive emails I've gotten, pretty popular.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

Inarguably dead = safER than live prey for in light of all inherent risks. I think that's all that was trying to be established.

I think that statment is debatable (i really don't like the word arguable) as we've seen. No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident that can happen in a captive environment.

-adam

[TokenLs]

I personally think, "scientifically" or "statistically" whatever you want to call it, you will find it is a 50/50 percent chance that your snake may or may not get bit.

where the heck did you get that #? 50/50?!? thats insanley wrong. ive fed live for about 3 months now without incident, and this is my first sanke so you cant really say im an experienced keeper, although i do keep an eye on him at all times tongs in hand.

[led4urhead]

You know .. this thread has gone for 5 days without incident, but now it seems to be treading over the edge. I will remind everone right now that it is not necessary to tell someone that they are wrong. If you have a differing opinion, you can find a way to expalin it without telling the person/person's that you quoted they are "insanely wrong". If this just degenerates into a flame fest, it will be locked and moved. I, for one, do not want to see that. This has been a pretty good discussion on a very important area of herp keeping.


The only thing i will add to this thread is: There's always more than two ways to skin a cat ... er ... a rat

[TokenLs]

im not trying to flame, its just the truth. based on my experience at least.

[MacWin]

Howdy all, I must say first having been a member for quite some time I am very impressed and pleased to see this thread staying remarkably civil I remember in the past stuff went downhill fast but I digress.

My Ball Python Bob who is about 2-3 years old is one of the "picky" eaters you hear about. I feed him live as well as my Boa (Jay) and my carpet (Berber). Mondays are feeding day and I feed them one at a time with a long set of BBQ tongs at the ready just in case. Fortunately Jay and Berber tend to hit coil and eat fairly quickly, Bob on the other hand has to have everything perfect before he will strike I have met less finicky cats and small children lol.

Needless to say I have experimented with Bob using both FT and FK and he ate frozen once that was it. My major rule with my guys is I do not walk away from the tank/enclosure until the rodent is dead. I even had him on gerbils for a while I remember even having a big debate on this site about it. Bottom line is I am safe with my snakes and as it was stated whatever works best for you and your animal is what you should do.

When I first got Bob he was my first reptile I had no clue only what I had seen on TV and read in some publications I found this site met some great folks and learned a ton I have always followed a good rule of thumb listen and absorb all the info and use what works best for you.

Ok I'll get off my soapbox now lol

[RobertCoombs]

Robert, were all of these animals such good eaters on frozen from day one?

Also, how many is "a good many" and were they all ball pythons. Putting some kind of numbers behind this and then determining the statistical likely hood of a bite from a live feeding might help people understand my point a little better.

Adam no not all of them were good feeders on f/t from day one but I have had no problem switching animals within a few feedings from fresh killed to frozen thawed
A good many is in the neiborhood of 10-15 times in my own collection and Ive seen it happen in others collections as well probly 4-5 times (imo one time is to many) the worst I saw was a BCI and a large rat at a pet shop the boa over shot his aim hung the rat with its bottom jaw and coiled any way the rat the proceded to( front end completly free) knaw away at the boa lot of blood and deep mouth wounds this was in seconds of the rat being dropped in to the cage ..shop keeper standing by quiclky reacted but there was more damage done allready than I would want to deal with in my own collection
No they werent all ball pythons (but when does chance pick a species)
I feed frozen because it works for me and I feel better about doing so