Should I give up?

[SSS]

I am feeling very frustrated lately. I have three older ASF colonies that I have had for about 5-9 or so months. 2 colonies I received from separate breeders and I created 2 new colonies with the first couple of litters. The first two colonies each had their third litters successfully, but then they all started to massacre their litters. Feeling defeated with one of the first colonies (as I was no longer producing litters as they would kill off their babies) I fed them off to my bigger snakes. With three left, I had hopes that things would change. But now all three are eating their babies. I have tried changing their food from 19% protein to 13% protein to 21% protein and that never changed anything. I very rarely disturb them. Only once a week do I clean their cages (or four days after the litter is born). I only go in their cages to give them more food. Their water bottle sits outside of their cage so I never have to reach in to grab it. In the last three months, out of 8 litters have 2 ASF babies made it to hopper stage. I first had them in large 105q sterilite tubs. Thinking maybe it was the space the the fact they could see through the tub and see me, I bought a small rodent breeding rack where all sides are black and smaller, like much smaller. But that never changed anything either. I have been having this issue for 6 months at least, possibly longer (should have kept records).

But hold on there is more. So two months ago I bought a new colony that was well established. Two of the three females were already pregnant with their second litter. A week later they both gave birth. Nothing happened to the litters. Both made it just fine. But after that, the new colony has again started to eat and kill their litters. I have no clue what is going on.

I am now trying mice but with ball pythons to feed... and most of them feeding on ASFs for a couple of years, none of them seem interested in the mice I have bought purely for feeders so I am really worried this will not work.

What am I doing wrong? People in my area seem to have such great success with ASFs and I am struggling so bad. I decided to breed my own ASFs because I figured it would be cheaper. These guys to feed and house only cost me about $140 a year, as where to buy food for my snakes cost $168 a month! Please help me.

[Asherah]

I have no experience with asf. When I was first starting out I dud have a rat eat her entire litter and once I had a mouse eat a couple of her offspring.
With the rat, it was her first litter (mine too). I kept checking on her and she got very stressed. As I understand it asf's are easy to stress. With the mouse, her water bottle had run out and I had been extra busy and missed it.

So I'd advise to be sure to supply plenty of food and water and do everything you can to be sure they feel safe and secure.

[Darkbird]

Sounds like they are missing something in their diet. I feed mazuri 6f to mine, and they get greens or other veggies on a rare occasion, and haven't had any serious issues. What have you been feeding?

[Citrus]

Try dried fruit. Not that candied stuff but like the stuff meant for birds. What's their diet look like other than the protein?


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[GoingPostal]

I had nothing but issues after the first couple litters with asf's, they ate their babies, got sick and died, no idea what the deal was but I gave up. Never had so many problems with my other rodents so stuck with mice and expanded into rats instead.

[SSS]

Well, rats are illegal where I live so it is either mice, hamsters, or ASF.

Mazuri is a little expensive since it has to come out of the US, so that is not going to happen. At first I was feeding them 21% dog food recommended by other ASF breeders with mixed veggies, fruits and bird seed. They would completely avoid the dog food. I also gave them meal worms and crickets once a week. After I tried that, I got rid of the dog food and went to a bird seed, 13% lab block. Again offering them meal worms crickets fruits veggies. At this time I started offering scrambled eggs as someone on Facebook group suggested I try. They love it but still didn't stop them from destroying litters. At this point I was told to give them a much cheaper but better alternative. 19% pig feed and chicken scratch mix. They actually like it. They don't avoid anything in the mix which made feel pretty good but it still didn't stop them from eating their litters. I have offered fruits, veggies and meal worms (no longer crickets).

I have never tried dry fruit, but it is still a treat in a sense and I doubt that is the reason they eat their young.

They ALWAYS have food and water. I check this every morning, as they seem to go through their food and water during the night fastest so I always check before going to work in the morning. I never top off, I always clean the bowl and water bottles before refilling. (Sorry, I just like things clean, plus they tend to use their dishes as a toilet).

[Citrus]

I would avoid things like dog food and pig chow and even eggs. I would probably go with commercial small animal feed that contains the nuts, seeds, fruit, etc. and mix in some meal worms. How often do they get the meal worms?


On another note, there was a study, I think it was called the great 500 community or something like that. This dude build this hole in the floor that was basically a giant cage for mice. After introducing the first mice they need like normal, generations passed, and then years later it got bad. Some mice were labelled as breeders in that all they would do is breed with ANYTHING and others were called the narcissists in that they constantly groomed themselves and only groomed, never mated or interacted with others. There were some that were the glutinous of the bunch that only ate. It got to a point of over crowding that they stopped breeding and ate each other. Dunno what your setup look like, but unless there's space maybe try putting the mother and pups in her own enclosure with nesting materials such as ripped newspaper and a hide. I think they will eat their babies if they feel they won't make it.


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[Darkbird]

Do not separate any of them, ASFs are very strong colony rodents, and will usually kill any outsider to an established colony. It's also been my experience that disturbing a colony this way usually results in them stopping breeding for a while. I have to cull breeding females for various reasons every so often, and I sometimes lose a months worth of production in the process.
Now as for your specific problem, the only thing that comes to mind is maybe your actually offering too much variety, as weird as that sounds. They may be just eating what they like and not the full variety of what's offered, thus missing out on something that would keep them from eating litters. Maybe just cut back to nothing but the lab block for a while, I would think it should be a complete diet anyway, and they won't have any option to pick and choose.

[Creepy Alien]

It sounds like you are in Western Canada (I'm on the other side, but I heard about the rats being illegal thing several times).

I'll give you a quick rundown of what I have found works for me.

I keep my main colony in a 40 gallon breeder tank (with wire top). I have a glass water bottle hanging inside the cage... it also has metal to prevent chewing. I have a metal wheel in the corner. It sound creepy in the middle of the night, but they seem to love using it... especially when they are stressed out. When I change their water, or need to do something with them, a few of them run right over to that and start using it. They used to love the big plastic saucer I had for them, but they've taken to loading it up with litter and hide babies under it. I just left it... they don't like things like that to go missing all of a sudden.

I have several little pieces of wood for them to chew on. I have various cardboard boxes and paper towel tubes for them to hide in/destroy. I replace those when needed.... although they use some of the chewed off sides as part of a tunnel system they make.

For litter, I use a bottom layer of "Woody Pet" (for horses), another layer of this brown recycled stuff from Walmart, and then just a very thin top layer of this soft, papery kind of stuff from Pet Smart. I also throw in the odd Kleenex for them to tear up. This lasts quite awhile before it needs to be cleaned. When I do clean it, I scoop EVERYONE up and put them in a temporary container... babies and all. When I'm done, I do the same thing. I try to keep all babies in the piles they had. I use gloves while I do this for scent and safety. The mothers are really protective/mean. I've also found that to be a big part of a successful colony.

For food, I feed them 18% Harland Teklad 2018 lab blocks (rodent diet) that I buy from Ontario. It's more expensive because of shipping, but I find it suits them great (I also feed the 2018 to my nursing mother rats, but the 2014 for the rest of them... but all the ASFs get the 18%). It costs roughly $110 CDN to get two 33 lb bags to me (after shipping and tax). It's expensive compared to what some pay, but especially when using hoppers (made from 1/2" hardware cloth), it lasts. They seem to get everything they need nutritionally out of it, and I swear it cuts down on smell in a giant way.

I'll also sometimes give them dehydrated fruits and vegetables, sometimes fresh vegetables, and sometimes sunflower seeds here and there, but it's mainly just the 2018 rodent blocks.

As has been said, don't introduce or separate members to/from your colony. You can split them off, grow new breeders up (as bad as it sounds, that's how they do it).

I know many people will kill off an extra mean female. I have one that's so far killed (well mortally wounded... I finished the job) one male, badly injured a female (Stubby Tail is now the matriarch of another colony... and is about the same), ate a few babies here and there, and gotten into a few short lived fights that seemed to be okay in the end. Belinda (The Butcher) seems to be really bad and is definitely never going to be a pet. While some might have taken her down a long time ago, her colony is very successful and produces well. I don't really like her very much, but I think she knows more about the ASF world than I do.