The Live vs F/T debate

[SnakeBalls]

I sure wouldn't be feeding live if I didn't get off on it so much. Love it. Must be my American savagry. Or maybe we can look further back to my WW1 & 2 era German great grandfather. But lets not go there.

Isn't there like 3 other threads about this and you already?

[Zincubus]

One of the infamous rodent destroys snake in cage match pictures. I can pretty well guarantee that the damage did not occur when a hungry snake struck an appropriately sized prey item. Let's use our powers of observation for a bit:

1) Snake is underweight,
2) Snake is small, anywhere from hatchling to 200g I'd guess.
3) Prey was large enough to cause significant, deliberate damage

That's what we get from the picture. Now, for a rodent to cause that kind of damage they need to be at least around the "hopper" size for mice or the "weaner" size for rats. Anything smaller than that is really only capable of defensive bites once coiled which would occur in a more localized area. Depending on the actual size of the snake we are looking at a prey offering anywhere from acceptable to grossly oversized. The snake being in rather subpar physical condition only compounds an oversized prey problem, if there was one.

Next, let's think about the feeding habits of mice and rats. Mice are more herbivorous but if they're hungry enough they will eat just about anything they can sink their teeth into. Rats tend to eat more protein naturally and don't require an empty stomach to taste test some meat. So, while rats are more likely to start gnawing on a snake, even mice will do it if hungry enough.

Knowing this, what's going to happen when you drop a hungry rodent in an enclosed space with a disinterested snake? Eventually that rodent is going to take a test nibble. If you've kept rodents you'll know they are relentless and rather ruthless when it comes to food. If the snake does not respond with an aggressive intent to kill it stands little chance in this scenario. Any kind of defensive response is likely to end with a tuckered out snake being eaten alive by a triumphant rodent.

Observing the underweight, small snake in the picture we can deduce that he is not feeding well. This could be the result of any number of things from a poor setup, not offering the appropriate food choices, to simply not offering food often enough. The state of the snake didn't likely cause the outcome but it still gives one ideas on how the scenario might have unfolded. I'm personally picturing an inexperienced keeper growing frustrated with a non feeder and simply leaving a live food item in overnight. Whatever the actual circumstances, this damage likely occurred over the course of many hours.

While we're discussing the pros and cons of live vs deceased. I have to ask folks that feed exclusively dead prey, what is your waste ratio? I imagine smaller collections lose more as they have less options when a prey item is refused. I currently feed about an even split of live to f/t and can count the number of uneaten, discarded rodents in the last 10 years on one hand. To be fair, even those rodents were eaten - just not by the intended snakes - but by the chickens or tegus. I have my snakes that will eat anything no matter what, they get f/t and do fine. Then I have the more volatile eaters, when they decide it's not time to eat the rodent simply goes back into the tub to live another day. I honestly can't help but shudder at the number of rodents, animals who gave up their lives for the sake of sustaining other creatures, that must be discarded because live feeding is so steadfastly shunned by some. I also wonder how many snakes had to be force fed unnecessarily, or even died, as a result?

Well personally I've never wasted a single defrosted rodent . It's an accepted practice to feed a 'rejected ' item to one of your 'dustbin' snakes. I've got a few that will NEVER , EVER refuse a meal .

[Zincubus]

You are right, it could have been easily avoided.

Let me explain; the ball python pictured is clearly a very young one. It's entirely possible that it was the snakes first time feeding live and it got a bad wrap on the prey. However; this is the part where being a responsible owner comes into play. There is zero reason that the owner couldn't have stepped in to save the snake. In my own feeding procedures I am always no more than a step away with feeding tongs ready to put those tongs between the feeder and my snake. If the mouse can bite the tongs go in their mouth until they're beyond the point of biting. If the snake has coiled the prey to the point where I can't get the tongs in place properly, I use my hands to maneuver the snake into a better position. This isn't ideal, but if it comes to me suffering a bite from snake or feeder or the snake releasing the prey entirely I'll still take that over allowing my snake to be destroyed (I have only had to move a snake into a better position one time, and in the process that snake readjusted its grip so my interference was no longer needed). If worse comes to worse, I know I am strong enough to pry a ball python off of the feeder. I invite you to post the entire story behind that gruesome picture, because I 100% guarantee you there was something that could have been done by the owner that was not done.

Wow , you paint a pretty picture there ...with your tongs being forced into the rodents mouth until it was unable to bite .... and here's me thinking that feeding live was cruel and barbaric .... what was I thinking !?

I'm the one around here who's heart sinks when I carelessly stand on a snail in the dark and yet I'm being portrayed as the ' evil enemy within '

Jees !

[dr del]

To be fair you are coming across as accusing the people feeding live as somehow morally inferior.

It's not likely to win anyone over to your side of any argument. As you know I don't feed live either - even when starting hatchlings. But when faced with a different culture I see no reason to try and change it to suit me.

If it helps I can tell you about snakes that died as a result of being fed improperly prepared F/T. I can even tell you about a case where the rats used formed a kind of digestive napalm that stuck to the snakes skin, when they regurged, of such severity it killed them as a result. I can also point out your body has destroyed thousands of organisms in the time it took you to read this.

Chill out and let others do as they do is my advice.

[DennisM]

This "debate" is pointless. F/T, pre killed and live are all perfectly valid and practiced by thousands of keepers. If local laws, customs or personal preference don't permit live feeding then fine, don't do it. None of these options is "right" and none are "wrong"

[PitOnTheProwl]

I really don't get this LIVE feeding malarkey . I've kept loads of snakes from Garters to Burms and I've never had to resort to feeding LIVE.
Even the fussiest Royal Python will eat warmed up d/f when they're ready . I currently have a matching , non related pair of Albino Royals who will only eat if it's warmed up and dangled in front of their face .. It sometimes takes three or four attempts but so what - just put the time and effort in and don't take the easy route of feeding LIVE . It's cruel to the rodents and risky for your snakes !!

I read a post the other day where this woman said she hated feeding live due to the harrowing sound of the rat pup crying in pain for 25 minutes whilst it was slowly eaten alive !!!
She said it sounded like a crying baby !!!

Well let me start by saying I am NOT going to read through all these pages.
Second, Barbaric?? Really??? Starting to smell the same at both ends here.
Third, you don't get it? That's right because its not all about YOU.

I don't get why you must continue to TROLL this debate.
You do as you want and we will as we do. That's life.

[PitOnTheProwl]

I was generalising as it seems that feeding LIVE is the norm in the US .
Its simply not considered as acceptable in England and indeed Ireland as the Irish forum have banned ANY discussions on the subject as its regarded as barbaric .
Anyways I'm done in these LIVE feeding threads .

Glad I am a barbaric HETHAN living in the great state of TEXAS.
I have now had two members try to insult me without realizing their opinion doesn't matter.

I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

There are many "once in life" moments.
It is your duty as a human to play them out as you would like.
Kind of like this moment, You made me into a liar this one time because curiosity made me read all these posts.
Yes, I know curiosity killed the cat (it was a 25 minute struggle for breath)
BUT satisfaction brought it back LoL

This "debate" is pointless. F/T, pre killed and live are all perfectly valid and practiced by thousands of keepers. If local laws, customs or personal preference don't permit live feeding then fine, don't do it. None of these options is "right" and none are "wrong"

^------This, this right here.


If anyone is so ignorant that they want to judge others for actions accepted in a community world wide, don't be mad when other judge you for regurgitating only information anyone could find on Google. Gain some first hand knowledge and then come back to the fight equipped with more than just he said she said.

[SKO]

I'm the one around here who's heart sinks when I carelessly stand on a snail in the dark and yet I'm being portrayed as the ' evil enemy within '

Jees !

Yeah you must be the only one who cares for animals on this forum. You should be more careful in the dark if there are so many snails to be stepped on.

If you love animals so much, why do you keep any as pets? Also, how can you proclaim love for animals but seemingly not understand animal nature? Rats don't gas and freeze themselves in the wild and wait to be eaten. If anything, feeding live is more humane in my eyes. Send the rats to a gas chamber to die slowly and then be frozen? Do you have other pets like dogs or cats? Do you eat animal products or have kids that eat animal products? Or is it tofu and Popsicles for everyone? You don't love animals, you love TELLING people you love animals and trying to make them feel like how they handle their own animals is wrong because you have some moral "mission".

[creatism]

Wow, just wow. I raise my own rodents and therefore feed a lot of live. It's funny I have some snakes left over from the days I fed f/t, their muscular development is different from the ones I raised on a primarily live diet. Just food for thought.
Also who ever came up with the idea that a rodent screams for 25 minutes while the snake is killing it is really really ignorant on how snakes hunt and kill. Typically, unless it's a gigantic meal, it's less then 10 from strike and wrap to ready for the next one!!


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[Zincubus]

*******************
^------This, this right here.

.

That second quote is not one of mine incidentally so I've no idea why my name is linked to it .

It's not showing for some reason but it's in your previous post .