The Live vs F/T debate

[pariahdog]

In the Reptile Community Ireland forum , even DISCUSSING the feeding of LIVE is not allowed as it's regarded as barbaric.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ive_prey_1.jpg

Just as a warning for everyone else, this is a graphic picture of a ball python (assuming it was attacked by a rat)

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

Did you know that deaths have occurred also when feeding F/T wouldn't one be too many also? Yet you don't see me being on a MISSION saying not to feed F/T.

Guess you did not know that either did you?

[200xth]

I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

So you don't know the answer to either question? You're just speaking from a position of hysteria rather than an informed position based on experience and knowledge of the subject in question.

I'm sure by now everyone knows that, so I'm gonna drop out of this. Not much point in watching you continue try to scare newbies with irrational fear mongering garbage. Kinda sad to watch, but people like you gotta do what you gotta do to feel better about yourselves I guess.

Enjoy.

[MontyAndMelissa]

I just love ALL living creatures ... as I've said before .... my heart sinks when I step on a snail in the dark .

I'm certainly not trolling ....

Perhaps, if you love all living creatures, you shouldn't own them as pets. You're keeping a snake confined to a small area and feeding it something that has been dead for God knows how long. Doesn't sound very humane to me. Are you a vegetarian?

[Spiritserpents]

Ratbait did fine with live prey up until he went blind. His previous owner, sadly, was under the mistaken impression that *all* snakes will *only* take live prey and so continued to feed him. She was trying to do right, but was not informed of all options.

There are snakes that will literally starve themselves to death for lack of live prey. Live pinkies are my ultimate last resort for non-feeding hatchling corns snakes, as in "you hatched 6 weeks ago, you've never eaten, and you'll die in another couple weeks if I don't get you eating." Some still starve themselves (i euthanise before they starve to *death*) but many will take live pinkies. I try to convert as soon as possible because I am personally uncomfortable with feeding live, especially to hatchling corns that don't kill the mouse first. That whole "save the fuzzy animal" vet tech part.

I also have worked with someone whose ball python refused f/t *anything*. Mice, rats, quail. If it wasn't alive, it wouldn't eat. She once had it go 6 months refusing f/t before she finally offered stunned live prey, which it killed and ate immediately. Snakes will form preferences. I have a corn snake that will *only* eat quail. He didn't eat for 9 months before I got him figured out, and that by accident. I have another corn snake that will only eat white mice. Snakes are weird, and while many can be switched to f/t, maybe even most, there will always be those snakes that turn their nose up at f/t, and those snakes need to eat. At that point, the owner needs to educate themselves and figure out a safe way to do it and be prepared for medical bills in case of an injury from a missed strike.

[Daigga]

I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

You are right, it could have been easily avoided.

Let me explain; the ball python pictured is clearly a very young one. It's entirely possible that it was the snakes first time feeding live and it got a bad wrap on the prey. However; this is the part where being a responsible owner comes into play. There is zero reason that the owner couldn't have stepped in to save the snake. In my own feeding procedures I am always no more than a step away with feeding tongs ready to put those tongs between the feeder and my snake. If the mouse can bite the tongs go in their mouth until they're beyond the point of biting. If the snake has coiled the prey to the point where I can't get the tongs in place properly, I use my hands to maneuver the snake into a better position. This isn't ideal, but if it comes to me suffering a bite from snake or feeder or the snake releasing the prey entirely I'll still take that over allowing my snake to be destroyed (I have only had to move a snake into a better position one time, and in the process that snake readjusted its grip so my interference was no longer needed). If worse comes to worse, I know I am strong enough to pry a ball python off of the feeder. I invite you to post the entire story behind that gruesome picture, because I 100% guarantee you there was something that could have been done by the owner that was not done.

[se7en]

I was generalising as it seems that feeding LIVE is the norm in the US .

Its simply not considered as acceptable in England and indeed Ireland as the Irish forum have banned ANY discussions on the subject as its regarded as barbaric .

Anyways I'm done in these LIVE feeding threads .

taxation without representation was also once considered acceptable in england.

how did that turn out?

[Jhill001]

Can we just compromise. Everyone start doing fresh killed, the animal isn't subjected to the barbaric actions of the snake which works for the UK and us blood thirsty Americans still get to kill something.

[Jhill001]

Also what is the OP's policy on fresh killed prey for snakes?

[John1982]

One of the infamous rodent destroys snake in cage match pictures. I can pretty well guarantee that the damage did not occur when a hungry snake struck an appropriately sized prey item. Let's use our powers of observation for a bit:

1) Snake is underweight,
2) Snake is small, anywhere from hatchling to 200g I'd guess.
3) Prey was large enough to cause significant, deliberate damage

That's what we get from the picture. Now, for a rodent to cause that kind of damage they need to be at least around the "hopper" size for mice or the "weaner" size for rats. Anything smaller than that is really only capable of defensive bites once coiled which would occur in a more localized area. Depending on the actual size of the snake we are looking at a prey offering anywhere from acceptable to grossly oversized. The snake being in rather subpar physical condition only compounds an oversized prey problem, if there was one.

Next, let's think about the feeding habits of mice and rats. Mice are more herbivorous but if they're hungry enough they will eat just about anything they can sink their teeth into. Rats tend to eat more protein naturally and don't require an empty stomach to taste test some meat. So, while rats are more likely to start gnawing on a snake, even mice will do it if hungry enough.

Knowing this, what's going to happen when you drop a hungry rodent in an enclosed space with a disinterested snake? Eventually that rodent is going to take a test nibble. If you've kept rodents you'll know they are relentless and rather ruthless when it comes to food. If the snake does not respond with an aggressive intent to kill it stands little chance in this scenario. Any kind of defensive response is likely to end with a tuckered out snake being eaten alive by a triumphant rodent.

Observing the underweight, small snake in the picture we can deduce that he is not feeding well. This could be the result of any number of things from a poor setup, not offering the appropriate food choices, to simply not offering food often enough. The state of the snake didn't likely cause the outcome but it still gives one ideas on how the scenario might have unfolded. I'm personally picturing an inexperienced keeper growing frustrated with a non feeder and simply leaving a live food item in overnight. Whatever the actual circumstances, this damage likely occurred over the course of many hours.

While we're discussing the pros and cons of live vs deceased. I have to ask folks that feed exclusively dead prey, what is your waste ratio? I imagine smaller collections lose more as they have less options when a prey item is refused. I currently feed about an even split of live to f/t and can count the number of uneaten, discarded rodents in the last 10 years on one hand. To be fair, even those rodents were eaten - just not by the intended snakes - but by the chickens or tegus. I have my snakes that will eat anything no matter what, they get f/t and do fine. Then I have the more volatile eaters, when they decide it's not time to eat the rodent simply goes back into the tub to live another day. I honestly can't help but shudder at the number of rodents, animals who gave up their lives for the sake of sustaining other creatures, that must be discarded because live feeding is so steadfastly shunned by some. I also wonder how many snakes had to be force fed unnecessarily, or even died, as a result?