The Live vs F/T debate

[John1982]

I rather think that the slowly dying rat pup crying like a baby for 25 minutes easily disproves that train of thought ....

You like mentioning that 25 minute mess as though it's a mark against all keepers who feed live. It's not really a common scenario. There are several things the lady could have done to remedy the situation with a quickness. If the 25 minutes isn't an exaggeration, which I highly doubt, I can almost guarantee she was the cause of the extended feed time.

I'm not a fan of snakes eating live prey before killing it either. All she had to do was grab the rat pup and jiggle it around a bit to get the snake to constrict. That failing, a little pinch on the snake to simulate a threat would surely have done the trick. Heck, she could have just thumped the pups head with her index finger for an instant kill.

In the wild the mice / rats have a chance to escape and also there's no risk to the snake as the prey is NOT cornered , fighting for their dear lives .......

This made me chuckle. Where do you think snakes encounter their prey in the wild? What do you think happens when a snake strikes true on a prey item in nature? I've found my fair share of scarred up snakes and I'm pretty sure people aren't catching them and dropping them in buckets with rodents.

The thing about snakes is they have no limbs. Give them 6 walls from which to gain leverage and they instantly have more control over the situation. I reckon there is even less chance of injury to a captive snake when offering live than your wild snakes that pounce on rodents when they just happen to cross paths while frolicking in fields.

Speaking of dear lives. You should keep some rodents and set a nanny cam on the rearing females. There is more infanticide than you probably think and they gruesomely eat them alive. In many species of mammals when a new male takes over a territory he instantly kills all nursing young simply to bring the females back into heat sooner. I'm just thinking, there are plenty more acceptable candidates for your lectures on unacceptability.

[se7en]

Speaking of dear lives. You should keep some rodents and set a nanny cam on the rearing females. There is more infanticide than you probably think and they gruesomely eat them alive.

a few weeks ago, i ended up with several extra adults rats (i always feed live btw) due to my larger snakes not wanting to eat. i put the rats in an empty tub, and supplied them with food and water. when i came home from work the next day, one of the rats had stripped another rat's face down to the bare skull.


rats are disgusting creatures.

[Zincubus]

a few weeks ago, i ended up with several extra adults rats (i always feed live btw) due to my larger snakes not wanting to eat. i put the rats in an empty tub, and supplied them with food and water. when i came home from work the next day, one of the rats had stripped another rat's face down to the bare skull.


rats are disgusting creatures.

That's such a strange scenario though ... I'd guess you'd find similar results with many different types of creatures . Confined space / terrified desperate animals ... you've heard the term ' dog eat dog ' surely so labelling rats as disgusting is debatable .

[se7en]

i don't think the rats were terrified and/or desperate

and rats being disgusting is not debatable

[Zincubus]

.

I've found my fair share of scarred up snakes and I'm pretty sure people aren't catching them and dropping them in buckets with rodents.
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Well the Internet is full of snakes injured / scarred / even killed by rodents fighting to stay alive when cornered in vivs plus you've confirmed that even in the wild many snakes are hurt and scarred ( probably losing an eye ) when they've ambushed a rodent .

So WHY on earth would you risk the health of your precious ( even expensive ) snakes when they are more than happy enough to eat a defrosted rodent ??? There are documented cases where snakes have stumbled across old decaying mammals and happily devoured them . There is no way I'd risk mine ... the adult Snow Boa I've shown off in other threads in here cost well over a $1,000 and he's a good looking boy .... I'm simply ensuring that he's staying that way

[200xth]

Well the Internet is full of snakes injured / scarred / even killed by rodents fighting to stay alive

Again, you have zero actual experience and are trying to create fear about something you know zero about.

[Snake Judy]

i don't think the rats were terrified and/or desperate

and rats being disgusting is not debatable

Sure it is. Rats are very intelligent animals with complex social structures. When housed and cared for according to their needs they develop complex hierarchies among one another, which generally results in a peaceful living situation and happy, well-adjusted rats. Shove a bunch of unacquainted animals together in a cramped, unfamiliar environment and there's going to be problems, regardless of species. Nobody would put a bunch of strange, unsocialized dogs in a little room together unsupervised and expect them to get along swimmingly.

I always find it a little strange when people have a deep appreciation for one (also very commonly misunderstood) animal but call another disgusting because of its nature.

[DVirginiana]

So WHY on earth would you risk the health of your precious ( even expensive ) snakes when they are more than happy enough to eat a defrosted rodent ???

Because they often aren't 'happy enough to eat a defrosted rodent'. Has it ever occurred to you that in a country where it is borderline illegal (correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the immpression I've gotten from other keepers) and widely not accepted to feed live that the babies that don't eat live never make it into the hands of hobbyists? They likely die in petstores and at the breeders' and are considered failure-to-thrive because they are never sold as no one wants or would take an animal that doesn't eat f/t in that environment. In short, it's not astonishing that you've never purchased a snake that will not eat f/t; if you can find large petstores or breeders that have never had a ftt because of food then I will be impressed.

Please stop acting like people who feed live are horrible, lazy people who don't care about their snakes or the feeders. I have been keeping reptiles over a dozen years and in that time have had ONE snake that will not take f/t or prekilled. She was put up for adoption for not eating at a chain petstore bc she wouldn't eat f/t and they were not allowed to feed live there. I tried all the tricks for months until she started dropping a dangerous amount of weight before feeding live. I hate feeding live as it is inconvenient to me and I don't enjoy watching the mice die, and have tried many times to switch her to f/t but with no luck. Would you recommend I let my snake starve herself to an unhealthy weight just so I can TRY and get her on a food item she has never been willing to take, and nearly died refusing?

btw, if you are not vegan (and I do mean vegan, not vegetarian) you have no right to complain about the 'cruelty' of feeding live. If you're personally eating something that suffered far more than the mice that I feed to my snake, it's highly hypocritical of you to accuse me of animal cruelty for doing what I have to do to keep my pet healthy.
Just to be very clear, I have no problem with eating meat. I do it myself. Just using that example to make a point.

[SKO]

It almost amazes that there are still feeding live debates today. Maybe this argument will never die....

[se7en]

Sure it is. Rats are very intelligent animals with complex social structures. When housed and cared for according to their needs they develop complex hierarchies among one another, which generally results in a peaceful living situation and happy, well-adjusted rats. Shove a bunch of unacquainted animals together in a cramped, unfamiliar environment and there's going to be problems, regardless of species. Nobody would put a bunch of strange, unsocialized dogs in a little room together unsupervised and expect them to get along swimmingly.

I always find it a little strange when people have a deep appreciation for one (also very commonly misunderstood) animal but call another disgusting because of its nature.

rats defecate and urinate at an astonishing rate.