Victims of the Dark Side of this Community

[zee-man]

I had a difficult time coming up with a title for this thread/topic. Its hard to put in a title that which will hopefully garner the attention that I feel is needed. I'm posting my feelings / response regarding this issue before the material as I hope people will read this before going into the "meat" of this thread.

This is not a good guy / bad guy thread, which is why its not posted under Inquiry / Feedback. This is not an attempt to call someone out or bring someone under the spotlight, because honestly, both parties in the situation could be anyone. What this IS for, is to hopefully show an example of how two good, honest people ran afoul because of the caustic, parasitic, and darker side of this hobby / business / community.

I think most any one of us could be placed in either situation, and if looked upon objectively, can see why the stance was taken as is. I will state that I was the person inquiring about the available female ball python, but no more personal / particulars will be provided. I tried to scour through the emails (at least three to four times) to remove any personal or identifying information. I want this only to serve as a discussion (and hopefully spur a solution) starter and awareness, no more.



From my perspective, the questions I asked were completely appropriate, standard operating procedure, and something I'd assume folks would ask of me when I finally decide to dive in the deep end and start breeding. Its entirely possible that the questions I asked would be fine in most cases, but as you'll read, my situation yielded a "perfect storm" to which made the breeder uncomfortable.

The question to ask here, is why was the breeder uncomfortable and put on the defensive in the first place? The reason? Because the breeder has obviously been bit by scammers, the parasites, and filth of this community. I would have never personally thought about stealing pictures, though I've read boi's where people use other's pictures to sell/scam unsuspecting customers. It was the prior experience of this breeder that caused him/her to go on the defensive and be nervous at my inquiry.

I was certainly frustrated and surprised by the response, but I can't blame the breeder. Really... you work hard for your animals, you put in the effort, and then someone comes along and steals it, cheats you out of payment, or tarnishes your name in the process. No one here gets involved in this hobby/business/passion for the b.s., we do it because we love snakes, and we want to share our enjoyment with others - and heck, if we can make a couple bucks and friendships along the way, all the better.

But the problem here is not the breeder, the problem is the parasites, the scammers. What other business has this many scammers? Why are they attracted to this community in droves? Is it because of fast cash, the naivety of the community, or perhaps because there are no checks and balances, no repercussions for getting caught, and the anonymity of the Internet to do it over and over and over again? I could come up with a hundred ways to scam someone online and ways to counter it, and I'd still miss the remaining thousand.



What can we do as a community do to instill these checks and balances? I've been reading boi's for the past couple months. People get caught scamming all the time and then change their alias and are back at it. Worse, is they don't get punished when caught. Most jurisdictions won't pursue online sale fraud, and most breeders caught off-guard don't have the money or the time to fly cross-country to sit in court across from their scammer (assuming they can be found to be summoned and aren't a minor). This is a heavy topic, and something we truly need a solution for or it will only get worse. I'm personally curious if this is a concern for both big breeders and the little guys, or the parasites only hit the small-timers because it is easier to fly under the radar.

How do these marketplaces and selling sites deal with scammers when caught? Are they IP banned, or allowed to continue posting as long as they pay? How do we deal with these scammers as a community? Sure, we can make boi's and hope people find them, but all it takes is a name change and the person is right back at it. It ruins it for us honest people starting out, for the small-timers who are already established and constantly wondering, "is this guy/girl for real, or are they going to try and pull one over on me?" It's not the way this hobby is meant to be, and I honestly can't think of many other businesses where scamming is so easily achieved and there is no repercussion. This is an issue that affects the entire community and I'd be interested to hear what the community feels can be done for more checks and balances and to work towards a better solution going forward.


For me, one way is references. If you sell / buy and do well, get a rating or reference. The next time you do business, you have a reference, someone who will vouch for you. If you have no reference, then its something for the other party doing business with you to consider.

Another solution is permanent IP ban's of people scamming or performing poor business on these selling sites like the Reptile Report Marketplace, Kingsnake, and Fauna. If you're worried about loss of money from the vouchers purchased, include in the T&C's that if you commit an unethical offense, you will be banned and refund will not be made.

Include breeder ratings on these marketplace/auction sites. Allow users to provide feedback, and maybe even require purchasees to register for them to get scored as well by the seller.

Are these things inconvenient, yes. But its these types of "tools" that allow other websites like Amazon, Ebay, etc. to operate without falling as heavily to scams and the low-lifes that linger over the web with the intent of cheapening and stealing what we work hard for. Personally, I'm willing to deal with the inconvenience of the added work if it means I can trust my source when I go to either buy or sell an animal.


Thanks for your time and I look forward to your response(s) and hope this spurs a discussion that produces some solution. Again, really would like to hear the input of a big name, but the likelihood of them seeing this post is probably slim to none, let alone getting a response. Everyone's opinion counts here, and I think good can come of this discussion, but first we must take a small step in that right direction. Just like with USARK, if you start a movement it gains ground and soon becomes a force to be reckoned with. This issue affects everyone, from the first time purchased to the experienced breeder. As this industry continues to flourish (and it will), so too will the dregs of society flock to it for fast, easy money. Whether you've been bit already, or the "opportunity" is biding its time, it could very well happen to you or a friend.

All the best.

Z

[zee-man]

12:29 AM (6 hours ago)

to breeder

Greeting sir. First, let me say I like your Facebook banner ****edited greeting as it could be used to identify breeder**** it means a lot and I appreciate that sacrifice in time and commitment.

I wanted to inquire as to your two posted Female **morph type** Ball Pythons on the Reptile Report Marketplace. If you could answer the following questions, it would be greatly appreciated.

1. Would it be possible to see a picture of the parents so I know what the females will "grow into" color-wise when full grown?

2. Do you guarantee the sex of the animal?

3. Are your animals internal and external parasite free and do you guarantee it?

4. What are the two females currently feeding on and could I see their feeding records?

5. Any chance at seeing more pictures of the two females for comparison purposes?

Thanks much for your time and wish you all the best.



2:33 AM (4 hours ago)

to me

You can move on and collect someone else's pictures.
You are not the first to come to me with fake questions just so you can try to collect pictures.
you obviously did research on me and my website. but still ask questions that can be found on my website.
You have a facebook which you used to check out my profile, yet your name does not appear on facebook.
Your e-mail does not appear on facebook either.
your IP addy comes up with private ARIN numbers.
I was not born yesterday.



2:51 AM (4 hours ago)

to breeder

Wow, I'm sorry you've had a bad experience in the past with someone trying to scam you for pictures... you are correct I do not have Facebook I deleted a few months ago as I hadn't used it since college when I graduated in 2009. My intent was not to make another page until I had chosen a name for my side hobby and actually started breeding. I only saw your home page which is not blocked to the viewing public. My IP might not make sense because I'm currently in Japan as I'm an engineer on foreign assignment. My intent was to possibly purchase one of your females to ship when I come home on a break to be with my girlfriend - who is the one most interested in acquiring a **morph type**.

I research all potential breeders I buy from because like you I don't want to get scammed. Thats why I don't really look at **competitor bp selling site** because so many folks post there and I try to stay with reputable breeders or those at places like bp.net. I messaged you with questions to see both your answers and the quality of your response. One of the reasons I worry about trying to start up the hobby is just that, scammers, liars, and the ugly side of business. I asked for pictures of the parents because your website only shows **morph type similar to inquiry** as a morph you're working with no **morph type in question** yet you have **morph type in question** yearlings and adult **morph type in question** vary in color.

I did look at your site and did see your guarantees but I've purchased a snake in the past that came from a big name with similar verbage on his site and still got a snake that had mites, a female Spider Albino to be exact. You can find my complaint / experience on bp.net, my username is zee-man there. I ask those guarantee questions again for a piece of mind and to have you write it because your word is who you are.


To be honest I was quite excited to see a response from you as I was getting ready to head to the gym. This was far from what I expected to read. I'm one to not trust people either but sometimes you need to give the benefit of the doubt. You may have not been born yesterday but I hope all your interested potential customers don't get this type of response to honest, good questions.

I hope you have a good evening as its rather late in **state which breeder resides** - which is I believe where you reside.

Best regards.



2:56 AM (4 hours ago)

to breeder

And so you know, I'm going to post this chain on bp.net. I will hide the names and emails and personal information. My reason for posting it is not to make anyone look bad, but to show that portion of the community what is happening to us because of the bad apples that ruin it for everyone. Something that should be common practice and part of the process got tarnished because of unease due to the filth in this hobby.

Again, I will not state any names or affiliations but people need to see this to be more proactive to the negative side and motivated towards corralling it. Post will be made my evening on bp.net you can read it in your morning.

Again best regards and my apologies for the double email and misunderstanding.



3:35 AM (3 hours ago)

to me

You are real.
My mistake and my apologies.
I make no excuses. I take responsibility for my actions.
Plenty of scammers out there. Nothing to do but be vigilant.
Hopefully not too vigilant like me.

[zee-man]

Note that the breeder did apologize for the misunderstanding. We often times remark (or I've seen other's state it and have a high respect for this mindset), "its not what a breeder does when things go well that makes them great, its how they handle themselves and the situation when things go poorly."

In my opinion this breeder was man / woman enough to admit they were wrong and apologize. Sure, it might have been a slight over-reaction, but how many times do you smack a dog before it flinches when you raise your hand or bites when it feels threatened in defense?

We all take calculated risks when we make decisions, sometimes our gut feeling is right and sometimes it isn't. But we should try to minimize the instances to which we need to utilize our gut instincts and be able to trust in our peers. This is only possible when our peers don't have the parasites blending in amongst the good folks.

In most cases I assume folks would be turned off by the response and not give the breeder business - to each their own. To me, I can respect the stance taken and may still decide to give the breeder my business. He / she seems like a stand-up individual (able to accept responsibility and even apologize), protective of their animals and hard-work (meaning they are passionate about their hobby), and was willing to respond at what was incredibly late in his / her timezone. I can't find fault in any of that.

Look forward to responses / ideas.

[JLC]

Unfortunately, IP bans are a thing of the past. While still a useful tool in some situations, any determined, intentional scammer will know how to easily circumvent such a ban.

There will ALWAYS be bad guys mucking it up for everyone else. That is true of every human endeavor out there, not just herp trading. They're like flies or mosquitoes...we can't ever get rid of them completely, but we can smush 'em one at a time every chance we get.

The key is buyer (and seller!) BEWARE. Be on the lookout for red flags. If it's too good to be true, it probably is.

And in your case specifically, maybe be aware of the red flags you might unintentionally send up. Your initial letter to the breeder started out just like a scam, with the "Greetings Sir" and over-the-top super-polite compliments. I know you didn't mean it that way, but my own "radar" pinged as soon as I started reading it, and I already knew the context.

I say that to say this: Careful communication is the key, for parties on both sides. You followed up with proper communication and everything got resolved. Unfortunately, not everyone is skilled at communicating, either verbally or in writing. Plenty of honest buyers and sellers out there just stink at expressing themselves in a productive manner. It's up to each and every one of us to BE AWARE of natural limitations and to BEWARE of the fact that there are always folks out there trying to take advantage.

[bcr229]

And in your case specifically, maybe be aware of the red flags you might unintentionally send up. Your initial letter to the breeder started out just like a scam, with the "Greetings Sir" and over-the-top super-polite compliments. I know you didn't mean it that way, but my own "radar" pinged as soon as I started reading it, and I already knew the context.

This was my exact thought as well, especially since the OP misspelled "Greetings" in his initial email. Combine that with the overseas IP address and it screams "scam".

Also it's sad, but these days you really need to watermark your pictures so that scammers don't use them - and that's also true in the motorcycle and firearm industries as well.

[zee-man]

I missed an 's' and that is a misspelling and scam? I guess I won't debate the "kindness" as being indicative of a scam as I always thought it was standard operating procedure to be polite when conducting business. I refer to everyone as sir until I know them on a first name basis, at work or in social gatherings, just how I was raised - though again a change of the times.

In a culture where grammar is all but missing and spelling is now graded on text speech - as proven on many boi email chains - maybe I'm just too old school. This is the type of speech that would set me off, the text speech and lack of desire to utilize full structure to send an inquiry on an animal I was offering for sale. But I suppose scammers come in all shapes and sizes.


I suppose you learn something new every day. Politeness is now a warning sign as opposed to trying to start off a relationship (which I consider every business venture a relationship) on solid ground.


Edit: Would someone kindly inform me as to how he got my IP address from a sent email? I don't require full detail but is it a packet that's attached to the sent data?


What of possible solutions?

[Rickys_Reptiles]

If someone steals my photo to use in a scam, then so be it. I have over 3,000 photos of reptiles on my Facebook page. Are we to watermark each and every photo? It's just not possible.

This hobby, as I've come to realize is composed of a handful of business people, a lot of good intentioned hobbyists and the rest are scammers and badguys. It's unfortunate, but it's just the way it is. I know thats not really a helpful answer to the OP, but sometimes in life you just need to pick and choose who you associate with, buy products (or live stock) from etc etc.

You would sooner clean the oceans of garbage before you clean our "hobby"

Maybe I'm just jaded... I dunno

[wilomn]

Everything you've discussed has been tried and abandoned Zee-man. Fauna has the good guy certificate, but even that isn't a surety since anyone can, or could it's been a while since I looked at it, post negative about you there whether they've done business with you or not. As Judy said, IP bans don't do diddly. I too got a scammer ping on your opening lines so that's one you need to work on; if it smells like a duck and quacks like a duck, maybe it's just a nice guy being polite, but most likely the next thing you do if you engage is wipe crap off your shoes.

I don't have a solution, other than to try to act the way I'd like to be treated, which is a mixed bag at times, but better than lies and deceit.

Caution and vigilance, do your homework and check your spelling and even then, be prepared for the unexpected because sometimes people just suck. When they don't it's great, but oft times they do especially when money is on the line.

[OhhWatALoser]

I used to have to change my IP all the time for online gaming, blizzard used IP ban you to stop "hackers and botters" even though playing normally could also trigger the ban. There's nothing to it. It may not be a solution, but it can be an annoyance to the scammer, might as well ban the IP.

theres too many pictures out there already and half of the watermarked pictures I see I could remove the watermark in under a minute. Content aware fill and a little touch up can get rid of a lot of them. I guess some people feel better knowing their picture weren't used, but it didn't stop a scam at all. So my take is why alter the viewing pleasure of the picture and ruin it for everyone else. I know many others feel different.

I have actually been asked by a couple people to take a picture of the animal on a piece of crumpled paper with their name written on it, which may seem over the top, but I doubt many have the skill to fake that. If someone asked me that though, I at least know they are a serious buyer. Once when I was asked the animal was in shed lol, but at least you could tell from the pattern, I did in fact own the animal.

[OhhWatALoser]

Edit: Would someone kindly inform me as to how he got my IP address from a sent email? I don't require full detail but is it a packet that's attached to the sent data?

it's in the header