Implications of Starting a Small Breeding Business

[zee-man]

I'm glad this is helping folks and people are continuing to find and post in this thread. I've gone quiet on the topic only because I've been doing some research myself. My hope is to speak with some experienced folks when I get home here in a couple weeks (so excited for multiple reasons ). I will update my thread with my findings.



Thus far you need to look into Federal, State, and county/city ordinances and requirements. For county/city most of these pertain to signage permits, business traffic, etc. Some areas will require permits or will prohibit this activity - it is an eye-sore and bothersome to the neighbors. With respect to a hobby breeder, I'd expect neither of these to really be a concern, but its just an example of the type of "local" laws for a small business.

What has me most perplexed is the fun "game" of naming your hobby. What all do you need to do to trademark that name and have it be "official" while still remaining a hobby? I know as a small business you need to get a Federal ID number for your business, but as a hobby, that isn't required. As I said... more digging. And it will vary by state. My state does not require special permits to breed exotic animals, only those which are native to my locale (which I'm not breeding). Other states have different requirements.

[sorraia]

Federal ID isn't always required for small business. It depends on your operation, if you have employees, and how you file your taxes. I have a personal small business, no employees, just myself. The taxes for that business are filed under my own personal income taxes (so instead of having a federal ID I use my personal social security number). I need a state seller's permit, city business license, and a home occupation permit. I use my name as my business name, or else I would also have to file with the county for a fictitious business name. City ordinances do not allow me to have customers come to my home, in the interest of keeping residential zoning. Instead I need to ship out my products, or go to my customers. I can get a special permit for certain events in my home, but otherwise I'm limited to not allowing customers to come and go. I'm also not allowed to have any kind of signage for my business at my home.

When it comes to breeding animals, there's a different set of regulations to worry about in addition to those pertaining to running a regular business. You now have to worry about ordinances regarding the number of animals you can keep, permits to breed those animals or keep more than what's designated in the ordinances, kennel license, etc. Hobby breeders can often skip all of that (in some cases) if they keep with the ordinances, or can fly under the radar.

[alan12013]

I plan on creating an LLC this year and I don't even own a snake yet. I have several other reptiles though. I got metaphorically slapped by some one on a previous thread basically calling me a fraud but that's not the issue...

I love pets and I have always been drawn to pythons and taking care of various reptiles. I had a rescue chameleon recently that drew me back into reptiles big time and I went from 0 to over 10 almost overnight and I plan on acquiring at least enough pythons to produce 3 clutches over the next year or so. If my business fails then I will try again but that is the model I have chose to follow. I currently own and run a full service cafe and a food cart and as that expands I work less hours on the floor which really gives me a chance to do what I love. I've also helped 2 people get started with their businesses, one of which is making over 50k a year and he never has to leave his house except to go to the post office.

I've read all the posts so far and I too am concerned with what opportunities a small scale breeder has to succeed. Call me crazy but what I am thinking of doing is something like this(besides breeding other reptiles as well): Building a nice collection of the basics such as normals, spiders, mojave, lesser, etc and whatever I can get my hands on for 250 or less. Because there are people who search for pets online I would do package deals like a normal with a cage and accessories for 100-150. I am going to either custom make the cages or sometimes I get lucky and find some on the classifieds for a good price and I stock pile them. People can go to the pet store now and if they want a ball python they can get it on sale for 44(low)-90(high), the cage for 160, the lights and accessories for maybe 70. So they are spending 275 dollars roughly to walk out with an animal. As a small time breeder I could sell that same package after I've done my thrift shopping for lights and stuff at goodwill for a decent amount less. The problem with this is that I think it will take a lot of time to shop around, I already drive all over the state to pick stuff up I find online and to various thrift stores. I'm not for sure how interested the larger and more easy to tap into market is in designer morphs. Now if I built a website and was making a good reputation for myself on the line (The Internship joke) then I could direct potential customers to vast amounts of information and work with them after their first purchase to help with health issues and possibly spark their interest in more exotic morphs. I'm watching lemon blasts, black pastels, and BELs staying on the classifieds without selling because they are asking 250-400 dollars but a 150 dollar normal with a crappy undersized cage and pos heat lamp selling within the week. The way I see it is these people could be buying from me instead of some ones unwanted pet that they cant take care of any more and I will give them a healthy animal and good equipment. Assuming no one purchased the higher end morphs I would be lucky to pull in 6000 a year therefore I would be tempted to turn my entire house into a reptile room just in order to produce enough offspring. I've heard people say time and time again that the big timers that survive off of breeding have tons of animals and most that are doing it now started large. When Ron Tremper first found a morph of leopard gecko his only goal before that was to breed as many geckos as possible, it was by chance that a morph poped out, I wonder why he wanted to breed as many as they could. I would love to hear some small time breeders talk about their starts and the road to where they are now, it's always nice to find a "role model" of sorts to learn from. I'm sure there will be critics to whatever I just said, I think I'm missing a gene or something...

[Snizz]

Alan,

I have spoken with the owner of my local reptile shop at some length. He says most non-breeder people that are just shopping for a Pet snake, at least in my area, are looking primarily for 1 thing, CHEAP. Were talking $39 corn snakes, and $49 normals. I see $100 morphs advertised locally for months without selling. A lady near me was trying to sell 2 healthy adult normals at $100 for both, and couldn't move them. My first (corn) snake was free with all housing and gear, because the owner couldnt find a buyer. If you want to target the consumer pet market specifically, inexpensive normals (and colibrids) may find you more of this type of customer.

You are so right about the under-sized tank and cheapo light package. But sadly we live in a walmart world, most people want cheap instead of good. Even the fantastic reptile shop by me, is mostly only known to people already into reptiles. This is why, I suspect, most BP breeders are selling primarily to each other.

[Snizz]

colibrids = colubrids

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I plan on creating an LLC this year and I don't even own a snake yet. I have several other reptiles though. I got metaphorically slapped by some one on a previous thread basically calling me a fraud but that's not the issue...

I love pets and I have always been drawn to pythons and taking care of various reptiles. I had a rescue chameleon recently that drew me back into reptiles big time and I went from 0 to over 10 almost overnight and I plan on acquiring at least enough pythons to produce 3 clutches over the next year or so. If my business fails then I will try again but that is the model I have chose to follow. I currently own and run a full service cafe and a food cart and as that expands I work less hours on the floor which really gives me a chance to do what I love. I've also helped 2 people get started with their businesses, one of which is making over 50k a year and he never has to leave his house except to go to the post office.

I've read all the posts so far and I too am concerned with what opportunities a small scale breeder has to succeed. Call me crazy but what I am thinking of doing is something like this(besides breeding other reptiles as well): Building a nice collection of the basics such as normals, spiders, mojave, lesser, etc and whatever I can get my hands on for 250 or less. Because there are people who search for pets online I would do package deals like a normal with a cage and accessories for 100-150. I am going to either custom make the cages or sometimes I get lucky and find some on the classifieds for a good price and I stock pile them. People can go to the pet store now and if they want a ball python they can get it on sale for 44(low)-90(high), the cage for 160, the lights and accessories for maybe 70. So they are spending 275 dollars roughly to walk out with an animal. As a small time breeder I could sell that same package after I've done my thrift shopping for lights and stuff at goodwill for a decent amount less. The problem with this is that I think it will take a lot of time to shop around, I already drive all over the state to pick stuff up I find online and to various thrift stores. I'm not for sure how interested the larger and more easy to tap into market is in designer morphs. Now if I built a website and was making a good reputation for myself on the line (The Internship joke) then I could direct potential customers to vast amounts of information and work with them after their first purchase to help with health issues and possibly spark their interest in more exotic morphs. I'm watching lemon blasts, black pastels, and BELs staying on the classifieds without selling because they are asking 250-400 dollars but a 150 dollar normal with a crappy undersized cage and pos heat lamp selling within the week. The way I see it is these people could be buying from me instead of some ones unwanted pet that they cant take care of any more and I will give them a healthy animal and good equipment. Assuming no one purchased the higher end morphs I would be lucky to pull in 6000 a year therefore I would be tempted to turn my entire house into a reptile room just in order to produce enough offspring. I've heard people say time and time again that the big timers that survive off of breeding have tons of animals and most that are doing it now started large. When Ron Tremper first found a morph of leopard gecko his only goal before that was to breed as many geckos as possible, it was by chance that a morph poped out, I wonder why he wanted to breed as many as they could. I would love to hear some small time breeders talk about their starts and the road to where they are now, it's always nice to find a "role model" of sorts to learn from. I'm sure there will be critics to whatever I just said, I think I'm missing a gene or something...

I hate to rain on the parade here but you are not gonna make a business out of producing a few clutches of single gene or even double genes low end animals that are less then $250.

You would even be lucky to break even doing that after all your costs.

The market is already flooded with those animals and they are VERY hard to move, as for normals the best you can hope for is wholesaling them to a pet store that has the proper exposure.

That would be a hobby, a business is expected to make a profit within 3 to 5 years and this won't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[richiquick]

Dude do what you love,I have a large collection that will coat me more then I can ever make.If you enjoy it,enjoy it.Hope to make money and keep your dream alive everyday.As long as you love the animals and they make you happy that's all that matters.My animals are my babies, I know what they are worth money wise but to me each one is priceless!Goodluck,don't let anyone break your spirit,you could be the next bhb!

[alan12013]

Richquick, that's the spirit lol I appreciate that! I do love reptiles and plan on breeding several species. My expectations aren't too high but I honestly think that I could show a little profit, especially by the 4-5 year mark.

Deborah, I do appreciate brutal honesty since I have a hard time being brutally honest with people, even when they need to hear it in order to save them lots of time and money. I currently own my own business that makes a good amount of money. Enough to buy a house, car and work towards my passion. My current business was VERY hard for me when I started and in fact I was losing money for months just to stay operating. If my business doesn't work out then I still haven't wasted time as I at least tried to follow the dream. I understand that I might even consider myself lucky with breaking even with snakes since I cant afford to jump in too deep right now without testing the market first and seeing for myself, I am stubborn though. I am curious as to chain stores that you've mentioned. I didn't think small timers could do that?

Rizz ( I think that was your screen name)... I know it's crazy so many people just want to spend as little as possible it seems when they decide to purchase a snake. But it would be nice to get them a cooler snake and set up that they will hopefully enjoy owning more than their generic packaged petco setup. Patience is another thing that I think will be important in this business. Holding out as long as possible to try getting the best price and cutting daily costs at every corner. Even the big timers use super cheap styrofoam sandwich to go boxes for their leopard gecko hides and make water dishes out of used bottles. I've seen them on you tube using disposable portion cups for water dishes to save them cleaning time. Another factor is having a full time job that can support you while you try to build a breeding business so you don't NEED your business to succeed. With breeding animals it seems that 3-5 years to start making a profit is a tough deadline to meet! Perhaps we should discuss estimated start up costs needed to expect any sort of profit? Or ways that small breeders can help each other advance into higher quality morphs. I'm more unsure of making a profit with pythons then some of the others that I'm working on due to the amount of clutches that I can reasonably afford to start with. Optimally I would only have 1 male and 3-4 females. I'm in contact with 2 individuals and 2 small time hobbiests regarding my first purchases. I think that I am getting some really good deals on some awesome snakes! I'm mostly excited about a lemon blast that I'll hopefully pick up this weekend. To save food costs I brought home some shelving from my cafe that I will use to house tubs for breeding meal worms, super worms and crickets (for other reptiles). I don't think that breeding mice would be too far out of the question. I know I'll probably have to feed rats eventually but I've had a pet rat in the past (Dr. Squiggles, Phd. not M.D.). I'm not saying that every SMALL breeding business will succeed and I don't want to come off like I think so. I've seen quite a few websites of people who started breeding but the websites have remained stagnant for several years indicating they probably failed or moved on. There has to be a reason so many don't succeed, IT'S HARD. If I was going to put all my eggs in one basket and only breed snakes I would go ahead and shoot for as many as I could get but I plan on testing the markets with several species just as Garrick DeMeyer did when he was starting. He even has a youtube video where he talks about how he had to breed some animals that were not his favorite just to keep his business going at first. As far as whole selling to pet stores... Does any one have experience with that? I've heard of a particular online store that will buy from small breeders but that's not snakes. I would love to have some mom and pop pet stores sell snakes that I've bred or even have bigger chains that are in my state buy from me. I wonder if they would... You could drop them off saving them on shipping. It seems like they would want some one stable to do business with, some one that's been doing it for a long time and could keep up with demand. Although I've noticed some petcos and petsmarts that will always be stocked up on normal pythons, leopard geckos and other reptiles then others that seem to never get restocked. I'd love to hear back from some one with experience in dealing with chains.

[PythonMan89]

I was actually looking into this the other day, and I found a link to this guy's blog that has a large amount of information on this very topic. He goes into it analytically from a very focused and analytical mindset, looking mostly at how to make it profitable if you were going to invest your time and money (or potentially an investor's money) into purchasing and breeding ball pythons. I found both blog entries absolutely astounding and thought-provoking. I'm not sure what the policy is on posting links to other blogs, so for now I will refrain until I look into it, but he touched on a lot of the same topics/objectives you brought up yourself, as well as a brief how-to on making your hobby at least potentially profitable. I'm looking into breeding myself for the first time, ever. I had a ball last year and I absolutely loved her to death even though she was a "normal". I didn't care. I'd always wanted a snake, had always been told no, and when I'd finally saved up enough, I bought her, the enclosure I needed, lights, thermometers, timers, infrared thermometer, UTH, a hide, a water bowl, and some substrate. I had her for about six months, and then I got my orders to leave the unit I was in to come to where I am now...I had nowhere to keep her while I underwent training, so I was unfortunately forced to find her a new family to care for her, who was very grateful to take her under their care and give her a good home.
I'm going into it purely from a hobbyist's perspective. I don't care if I lose money. I don't care about potentially shelling out 1,000 dollars for a snake that cost me a tenth of the vet bill. I'm getting into it to produce my own Blue-Eyed Leucies, because from the moment I saw them, I wanted my own, and the pairs that you can breed to get them yourself are ultimately a lot cheaper than buying the one snake outright.
Now, when I do eventually breed the parents and hatch my first successful clutch (taking into account the human error factor and the off-chance that maybe an egg or two dies due to error or other incalculable issue) I plan on holding back at least one of each morphed egg that hatches, and selling the rest. I don't expect to break even. I know that my initial costs to set up both snakes to live comfortably, the monthly cost of substrate, mice, lights and heating, and everything else will negate any "profit" by a good amount most likely. But since I'm in it just to enjoy my animals for what they are and make sure they're all raised as comfortably as I'd raise children (if I had any) or pets (of which I've had quite a few), then it isn't a question of profit margins as it is about how enjoyable it is for me to raise them, breed them, and ensure the newborns are put into great and caring homes. If I can enjoy myself doing just that, then I'm happy.
Now if I get burnt out for whatever reason? Then I can always stop breeding, continue raising my snakes as pets, and continue on my way.

[bcr229]

I was actually looking into this the other day, and I found a link to this guy's blog that has a large amount of information on this very topic. He goes into it analytically from a very focused and analytical mindset, looking mostly at how to make it profitable if you were going to invest your time and money (or potentially an investor's money) into purchasing and breeding ball pythons. I found both blog entries absolutely astounding and thought-provoking.

Probably Colin Weaver's blog, which is excellent.

I'm going into it purely from a hobbyist's perspective. I don't care if I lose money.

I'm on a forum that discusses potential businesses to start, costs, etc. One of the tenets is: don't try to start up a new business out of something that others are already doing as a hobby. The hobbyist doesn't care if he incurs losses, and he doesn't have the same overhead costs - business licensing fees, tax prep, tax collection, etc. - that the businessman does, so the hobbyist can undercut your price.

The difference in sales taxes alone - 6% in my state - means that the "out the door" price on a $300 snake on the businessman's table at an expo is $318 for the buyer... and $300 if purchased from the hobbyist. Guess where the buyer will go? And yes, BP buyers are cheap.

So, run as a hobby for a while, see if you can turn a profit, and if you actually like doing the "business" side of things - marketing, selling, dealing with people, etc.