Implications of Starting a Small Breeding Business

[zee-man]

I've been pondering the following topic for some time and as excited as the thought gets me it bears to question just how plausible it is. As this section is specifically built to cover just this topic - and is a bit slow as of late - I thought I'd throw it out there for perhaps some good discussion and an opportunity to learn from those already there. I warn ahead of time this is a long post, but I hope its broken down well enough to be easily read and replied too, and will foster good discussion.

I want to first state that I didn't want to put the word "business" in the title as to me that sounds like work. I already do work, I want this to be fun/play time. I know it won't always be, but relegating it to a "hobby" sounds more fun than "business." Though you still need all necessary permits, etc., it seems less painful and more positive this way. Kind of like if we rephrased "taxes" to "our contribution to society."


So when I land back on American soil I considered taking my modest collection and pursuing breeding. Nothing large scale, only a couple/few clutches a year, but this got me thinking. How do you market yourself to interested parties? Sure I can make a Facebook page, a website, advertise on ks, etc., but I've visited these areas, and the one thing that you need to do, is stand out amongst the crowd. I've already promised myself if I get involved in this undertaking, my desire is to provide the best I can - health, support, response time, etc. - but it won't matter for much if people never find/see what I have to offer. I suppose I could buy "likes" or play macro-writing games so that my website pops up as a top response when "ball python" is searched, but I don't want to play games. I'd rather be known as a solid, trustworthy guy who offers quality animals. This is something that I really wish to take pride in and truly share the experience with others. But I see many folks here who are just the same (which is great!) and I've visited some of your websites - how do you make those relationships and get people to see what you've got to offer - this forum, trade shows, people in your area, etc.? One example of a guy I remember "just starting out" was 8 Ball Pythons. He was a bit into it when I first came to this forum, but had built quite a reputation (positive) here and seemed to be doing well. From what I understand Adam is an awesome dude and that helped build that reputation. But was it also partly because of when he started just as much as how he started?

One of the topics that spins off of the above, is what you have to sell. If I offer only a few clutches a year, what encourages someone to check my website, when they can visit one of the "big boys" and see a massive list of available morphs? Are they really going to take the time to visit my website and compare? How about taking a chance on a no-name / no-rep breeder? I know people look at fauna boi's all the time, but what if there is nothing on this new prospective breeder? Would you personally take that risk, or go somewhere else? For me personally, I've leaned more toward the middle and smaller sized breeders, because I appreciate the attentiveness, eagerness, and effort they make in communication and making the sale. To me, that is just as important as the quality of the animal being sold.

The market is full of single and double gene animals. It honestly blows my mind, because in the time I've been in this hobby (owning my first snake to now) I've seen prices cut in half - or more - for many animals. I remember when bumblebees were the talk at my local reptile show, and now you can see 3-4 gene animals. What happens to all of these animals that are single and double gene? Sure, beginners will happily take them, but that's assuming those beginners go online to look for their first snake. You can also offer them as package deals - which seems a rather clever idea - but the user has to be even slightly interested in breeding on their own - or wanting two snakes instead of one. Even assuming you breed a 2 gene to a 3 gene, you still have odds for singles and doubles, heck even normal. Is everyone truly managing to sell these animals before the next breeding season, or are many collections of the small timers growing without necessarily wanting them too? Is there even a true demand for ball pythons nowadays with the number of big, middle, and already existing small time breeders - or is the market merely bloated thanks to sheer numbers and a struggling economy?

Auctions... perhaps one of the banes of the hobby for small timers. Its a great thing for those with the stock and the ability to deal with hit and miss sales, but it seemingly eliminates the chances of small timers. They either have to sell their stock to the auctions of a big timer / post their snakes on one of these sites, or hope that they have established a reputation strong enough to make a sale with their already existing clientele. I honestly wonder how much longer people will be operating their own websites with the masses looking more towards options on social media and the conglomeration of big names with their own hosted auctions. When prices on animals are so low thanks to auctions it creates a false expectation of those looking to purchase. There is not only the pull of potential buyers to these "hubs" looking for the best price, but there will be more and higher frequency of animals available.



For me personally, when I make a purchase, I really put the breeder through the ringer. Not being harsh on them, but moreso researching their reputation, communicating with them to see how they respond, what kind of information they can provide, and their willingness to work with me - not on price mind you, but in communication. I've always been a believer that if you are a stand-up individual and do your best to work with your customers and offer a quality product - regardless of what that is - you'll be able to manage a positive result. Perhaps not become a full-time big name, but be able to make some sales of your animals and build a reliable customer base. I now have some breeders I visit their websites first before going anywhere else, and others I would not consider purchasing from again - or at all. I'd like to hope the majority of people do similar, but in reality the bottom line is cost for most - which is the reality of business. What are your opinions? Do you feel there is a chance for the small-timer out there to establish themselves enough to have people interested in what he/she has to offer at this stage in the morph game, or is it merely a pipe dream/wish that more than likely won't become a reality because the "game" has outpaced that level of play?


If you made it this far, hopefully it wasn't too painful, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say. Thanks!

[AlexisFitzy]

This is beautifully written and was thinking about making a post similar to this some day but I couldn't have written it as well as this. I really hope this thread takes off and you get tons of answers because I am very curious about this as well. I'm sure this will be an extremely helpful thread to people who want to start a small business. Subscribed.


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[zee-man]

Hi Alexis, thanks for your reply. I was growing concerned perhaps my post was too long or poorly written.

I think this could be a great topic. Every couple days someone mentions plans to start breeding or a desire to. It would be great to have a no pulled punches type of thread that gives a dose of reality to help someone better decide whether breeding is right for them and - most importantly - your animals.


What we should consider is you have mainly three different types of customers - enthusiasts, collectors, and other breeders. Enthusiasts probably like reptiles and want a snake and don't want a fast mover like a corn snake so ball python it is. They might own a couple snakes but more than likely one or two. Collectors are the next level of customer. They dont really want to breed but really love the color of the mid and high level morphs. They may have started with a single but when they add to their collection they want something that really pops. Finally, other breeders. Big timers will spend big bucks to get in on new projects or imports that offer promise of something. I dont see them buying from a small timer unless they want fresh blood in their collection which most likely would come from another mid or high end breeder. Basically small timers will sell to other small timers, enthusiasts that look online, or a collector - if you have something complex to offer

Essentially the market depends on other people wanting to get into breeding to sell these combos. That's where the money and interest is. But the double edged sword is that you must encourage others to breed to potentially make these sales knowing in a couple years they will now be "competition" adding more snakes of that type to the market. So its almost necessary to encourage others to breed to sell your offspring. Not to say this is some devious plan of a dark fraternity where you get smacked with a paddle and have to say "thank you sir may I have another," but its likely this is the reality of business.

[AlexisFitzy]

I'm so disappointed that this thread hasn't taken off yet there's so many small breeders, and aspiring breeders on this site.


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[Dave Green]

I started to respond a couple times but you could write a book. I was a few paragraphs deep and gave up, it felt like I was answering fifty questions.

[AlexisFitzy]

I started to respond a couple times but you could write a book. I was a few paragraphs deep and gave up, it felt like I was answering fifty questions.

That's true it is a lot to answer for one person and would be a super long book if you did answer everything yourself but you don't have tackle it all by yourself maybe just comment on what you feel most strongly about or just focus on one of the questions. That's the great thing about this site. If one person leaves out some info others will comment and fill in the gaps


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[bcr229]

You've got two main topics in the OP: Business versus Hobby and Reputation

I already run two small businesses, neither are herp related. Both are LLC's. So, I have some overhead with each that takes my time each week - accounting, quarterly taxes, etc. - in addition to the actual business of the business. I don't want to have to look at my animals as lines on an inventory sheet, with me praying that I make enough on sales to show at least a small profit, my accountant telling me it's a bad idea to have a $1000 vet bill on a $200 snake (a business would euthanize the snake, write off the loss, and replace it), the IRS gets testy if you show losses for more than 3 years in a row, a Schedule C is a big red flag for an audit, etc... So, I'm keeping my activity firmly as a hobby with my expenses greater than my income, and if I start to get burned out, or I decide that producing only a handful of clutches to produce what I want instead of pairing every female that's ready to go so the at least pay for their rats is what I want to do that year, or my favorite normal female with a value of $100 needs pricey vet care, I can do as I please and I have no one to answer to for my decisions so long as my animals are kept appropriately.

Reputation is easier - I would rather be a hobbyist with a good rep than a business with a crappy rep. Building a good rep simply takes time and a willingness to fix your screw-ups when (not if, we're human and we make mistakes) they occur.

[Dave Green]

I'll start with getting started. Every big, medium or small breeder started somewhere. I don't know of anyone that bought someone else's business which means we all started from scratch. You need to promote yourself, name recognition is huge in this hobby/business. Most breeding programs need years to get going. What are you doing in the meantime?

I moved from NJ to AZ in 2007. Before that, if I was known at all, I was locally known as a small hobbyist who kept and bred a few snakes. I started buying Ball Pythons in 2005 and built a pretty nice collection. When I moved to AZ and got settled I started doing local shows as well as the Anaheim, CA show for three years. I showed off my snakes and got my name out there. I also showed off stuff on forums and got involved in discussions, etc. I had some luck along the way and built a good reputation for myself.

I think too many people sit back and figure the snakes will sell themselves which is rarely the case. People need to trust you and feel comfortable dealing with you. Get your name known...

[zee-man]

Take #2:

I havent had the chance to read all the replies yet but wanted to say thank you to those whom have taken the time to do so.


I did see comment that its a lot to reply to. I agree wholeheartedly. I was intentionally trying to spur a good discussion and share of knowledge. Lets take it one step at a time and progress. I really think this could be a great thread.

So for everyone who has read and has/will offer comment, thank you.

[sorraia]

I'm not even breeding yet (though I have put my first pair together this season), and definitely not going to go into it as a business, but thought I'd throw out my input as a novice and as someone who has been in the "animal business" with other species. (I used to breed pet/show rats and was quite successful, so although its a different species and a different market, I expect some of that experience would give me some perspective on these matters.)

I want to first state that I didn't want to put the word "business" in the title as to me that sounds like work. I already do work, I want this to be fun/play time. I know it won't always be, but relegating it to a "hobby" sounds more fun than "business." Though you still need all necessary permits, etc., it seems less painful and more positive this way. Kind of like if we rephrased "taxes" to "our contribution to society."

For me I feel the same, in a way. To me, a business is what you make money off of, its where you earn your living. You have to approach from a profit/loss, income/expense perspective. It can be enjoyable, but ultimately if you want a successful business, your profits need to be higher than your expenses. As another reply indicated, this can be problematic when a $200 snake requires a $2000 vet bill. From the business perspective, that snake is better off viewed as a loss, and put down, than to spend that kind of money on treating it, then hoping you can recoup it later on down the line. I personally don't want to have to view my snakes in this way. They are my pets first and foremost, and I have them because I enjoy them. As living animals I have chosen to bring into my home, I feel it is my responsibility to take care of them and give them the best care possible, including paying those vet bills when an ailment is treatable. For these reasons, any snake breeding I do will be on a hobby basis. I could lose money, and that would be ok because I would still get enjoyment out of it, just like I would lose money going to an amusement park, but still get enjoyment out of it. If I break even or actually make some profit, that will be a bonus, and something I can put back into the care of my snakes. If it becomes too much stress and work, then I can "retire" my snakes to pet-only status and just enjoy them for what they are, instead of worrying about breeding and selling the offspring.

How do you market yourself to interested parties? Sure I can make a Facebook page, a website, advertise on ks, etc., but I've visited these areas, and the one thing that you need to do, is stand out amongst the crowd.

You hit the nail on the head. You need to stand out from the crowd. With my rats, I build quite the reputation for myself, throughout the hobby, across the country, and even into Canada (I'm in the US). I did that not only by having a thorough, informative website, and by having my site listed on other sites, but also through networking. I joined online communities, helped other people, socialized and made friends, I joined clubs (even if I wasn't actually showing my rats), etc. I made it a point to tell people why I picked the rats I did to produce my litters. I made a point to keep my rattery transparent, keep people updated, let them know what i thought about different issues, show how I truly felt about ethics and responsibility. It took me years to gain the reputation I did, but it did pay off. I actually held waiting lists for my litters (and I only had a few litters a year!), I was able to place all of my rats, even the "plain" colors like black. Although I haven't had my first snake clutch yet, I expect it is similar. A website and listings can be helpful, but the real work is networking and building that reputation as an excellent breeder who can and will stand behind their animals.

If I offer only a few clutches a year, what encourages someone to check my website, when they can visit one of the "big boys" and see a massive list of available morphs? Are they really going to take the time to visit my website and compare? How about taking a chance on a no-name / no-rep breeder? I know people look at fauna boi's all the time, but what if there is nothing on this new prospective breeder? Would you personally take that risk, or go somewhere else?

Networking, networking, and more networking. When I bred rats, I would have only 2 litters in some years, and as many as 6 litters in another year. I routinely kept 2-4 babies from each litter, I routinely sold my rats in same-sex or spayed/neutered pairs, and my litters were typically about 10 babies. That meant I didn't need a bunch of people to buy my rats, and there could be months in between litters. If I kept to myself and stayed quiet, that meant my rattery could become stagnant and not grow. But because I put myself out there and spent a lot of time socializing and networking, even between litters, I was able to keep people interested. I also wrote articles and made blog posts to help keep people engaged and interested.

As far as taking a chance on a newbie, I personally am willing to, IF they have no negative feedback and/or have some positive feedback. The BOI's are very helpful. Its different with snakes than rats, because you can ship snakes across the country. It might cost a little more, but this opens up a whole different market than what you may have locally. With my rats, shipping was so prohibitively expensive, I would not do it. That meant most of my sales were local only. Occasionally my rats were sold out of state if I or the buyer were travelling, but that was uncommon. Staying local meant my market was quite limited. Being able to ship does open up a different set of risks, especially for the buyer, but that's why building that reputation and networking IS so important. If you have a good reputation, that makes people more willing to take the risk. Even as a buyer you can develop a reputation: good communication, prompt payment, working with the seller, etc. I've got a few positive feedbacks on Fauna because I've been a good buyer. Not quite the same as being a seller, but it is definitely better than no feedback at all.

The market is full of single and double gene animals. It honestly blows my mind, because in the time I've been in this hobby (owning my first snake to now) I've seen prices cut in half - or more - for many animals. I remember when bumblebees were the talk at my local reptile show, and now you can see 3-4 gene animals. What happens to all of these animals that are single and double gene? Sure, beginners will happily take them, but that's assuming those beginners go online to look for their first snake. You can also offer them as package deals - which seems a rather clever idea - but the user has to be even slightly interested in breeding on their own - or wanting two snakes instead of one. Even assuming you breed a 2 gene to a 3 gene, you still have odds for singles and doubles, heck even normal. Is everyone truly managing to sell these animals before the next breeding season, or are many collections of the small timers growing without necessarily wanting them too? Is there even a true demand for ball pythons nowadays with the number of big, middle, and already existing small time breeders - or is the market merely bloated thanks to sheer numbers and a struggling economy?

I have a different take on this than what I see many others share. The animals I have now are single and double gene animals. I personally don't like some of the 4, 5, and 6 gene animals. In my opinion they are too washed out, faded, just not as stunning as a high quality single or double gene animal. Since I'm not going to be a big breeder, I don't want to spend the money on a "power house" animal I won't enjoy, I want to spend my money on high quality animals I WILL enjoy. So that means my clutches will be producing more single and double gene animals. To me, that's ok. I will focus on quality instead of quantity, and my market won't necessarily be other breeders, but might instead be that person who is looking for one or two snakes to keep as pets. That pet owner isn't going to want to spend $20k on a snake (at least not typically!), instead they'll be perfectly happy buying one that's $50 to maybe a couple hundred. That's exactly what these single and double gene animals are going to cost. Might take me longer to sell them, but as long as I have the means to care for them, that's ok. Again, its about quality over quantity. Rome wasn't built in a day, I didn't gain my reputation in the rat hobby over night, and any snakes I produce won't be flying out of the rack at breakneck speeds. That's reality, and that's what I personally have to come to terms with if I'm going to breed snakes, especially as a hobby.

As far as prices falling, that's pretty standard supply and demand. Something in high demand with low supply is going to sell for a lot more than something with high supply and medium or low demand. High supply with high demand can sell for more, but maybe not as much as the low supply item. Its also about marketing. If your snakes are viewed as higher quality and better than someone else's (for example, if you have axanthics who are perfect gray scale animals with no hints of brown, they can be viewed as more valuable than a browned out, muddy axanthic), they'll sell for more. Offering better customer service can make your animals more marketable. And over time you can break even, which as a hobby and not a business is ok. I might pay $200 for a snake, and the offspring it produces are only worth $50-100. If I produced 5 babies, kept 1 and sold the remaining 4 for even $50 each, I just paid off that $200 animal in one clutch (granted there will actually be 2 animals involved, since it takes a male and a female, but I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this!). As a hobby, that's ok with me, because I'm not in it to make a profit, I'm in it for the enjoyment of the animals. Breaking even, or making a small profit that can be invested back into my animals is a bonus. (And it also helps being able to cut down on costs by raising my own rats. That makes the price of food negligible. The climate I live in is also advantageous, because the heating costs become negligible since our weather is typically pretty mild, with winter night time temperatures rarely reaching even freezing.)

Auctions... perhaps one of the banes of the hobby for small timers. Its a great thing for those with the stock and the ability to deal with hit and miss sales, but it seemingly eliminates the chances of small timers. They either have to sell their stock to the auctions of a big timer / post their snakes on one of these sites, or hope that they have established a reputation strong enough to make a sale with their already existing clientele. I honestly wonder how much longer people will be operating their own websites with the masses looking more towards options on social media and the conglomeration of big names with their own hosted auctions. When prices on animals are so low thanks to auctions it creates a false expectation of those looking to purchase. There is not only the pull of potential buyers to these "hubs" looking for the best price, but there will be more and higher frequency of animals available.

I don't have a problem with auctions in and of themselves. Other animals are auctioned off, and auctions are a great way to see what the buyers are ACTUALLY willing to pay, without having to bother with the haggling and potential lost sales. This is where marketing to the pet portion of the hobby is advantageous, because those are the people who are looking for the deals, aren't as willing to pay thousands for a single animal, AND is the portion of the hobby more likely to see the most growth (let's face it, top breeders ARE limited in number, and WILL see the most limited growth, while the number of pet keepers are going to grow at a much higher rate). What I do NOT like with auctions are how they currently work. I personally can't and won't do Facebook auctions, because I simply won't have the exposure to be successful. The newest reptile auction site (Reptile Ring) looks like a great idea for those who want to do auctions, BUT it prices out the small timers like me. I don't necessarily want to keep a website, so I won't have the option of waiving their activation and yearly membership fees, and $200 + $100 annually is much too expensive for ME who will probably only have one or two clutches a year. It seems to me that auction site is going to be much more advantageous for the big time breeders who have that money coming in to be able to pay those fees, and/or who have the popular websites to be able to post the banner and waive those fees. (Note: I'm not talking about listing fees and commissions on sold auctions, which are pretty standard across all markets, including Amazon and eBay.)

For me personally, when I make a purchase, I really put the breeder through the ringer. Not being harsh on them, but moreso researching their reputation, communicating with them to see how they respond, what kind of information they can provide, and their willingness to work with me - not on price mind you, but in communication. I've always been a believer that if you are a stand-up individual and do your best to work with your customers and offer a quality product - regardless of what that is - you'll be able to manage a positive result. Perhaps not become a full-time big name, but be able to make some sales of your animals and build a reliable customer base. I now have some breeders I visit their websites first before going anywhere else, and others I would not consider purchasing from again - or at all. I'd like to hope the majority of people do similar, but in reality the bottom line is cost for most - which is the reality of business. What are your opinions? Do you feel there is a chance for the small-timer out there to establish themselves enough to have people interested in what he/she has to offer at this stage in the morph game, or is it merely a pipe dream/wish that more than likely won't become a reality because the "game" has outpaced that level of play?

I feel the same way. I honestly feel more compelled to go with the small time breeders than the big names, because they seem to have more time to put in that extra effort for customer service. (not saying the big names don't do it, just seems the small timers are more willing and able, which makes sense if they have smaller collections, fewer clutches, and fewer clients.) I think there absolutely is a place for other small timers who feel the same way, who want to focus on quality over quantity, and focus on customer service over quick sales. I do think the small timer will have to work harder, because they don't have that large clientele (and referrals that go with it) or exposure, but with that extra bit of work I think a small timer can work it out. Just don't quit your day job.