Scale-less BP photo!

[OhhWatALoser]

I am just stating my opinion for the purpose of provoking thought. I do not wish to argue. I "feel" that selectively breeding for traits, or deformities, etc. that diminish the animal's natural abilities , i.e. heat sensory, locomotion, etc., is indulgent and gives little consideration to the welfare of the animal. Be it scaleless snakes, hairless cats, pug nosed dogs, these are all examples of human's folly to appease their own curiousity and/or desires, while leaving the animal diminished.

Those that will argue about naturally occurring morphs such as the scaleless head, pied, etc. need to consider that natural selection will opt to eliminate those mutations that do not promote the species' existance. This is why albinism is not found in huge numbers or whole populations. As the animal is much more easily seen, it makes it much more vulnerable to predation. Perhaps if it were to avoid predation long enough it would prove to be susceptible to irradtiation from the sun and succumb to cancer (speculating I know). Further, I "believe" the arguement of selectively breeding children without arms, while extreme, makes the point well. People would probably percieve it as cruel and irresponsible since the result would hinder the ability of the person to live normally as we know one should live. There would likely be extreme debates and protests over the issue, if not legislation in the end. This is no different. It is just a different species with no advocate.

The owner of this animal has chosen to promote a birth defect, not a characteristic. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Snakes have scales as the emperical data will confirm. That is a characteristic of snakes. The defect is one that likely would not promote nor enhance the survival of the animal, if it were to exist in a natural environment and had to fend for itself. And while this might be an opinion, it is only so because there has been no study of scaleless snakes in the wild. You may want to ask yourself, "why that is"?

In my "opinion" a scaleless snake is not a positive for ball pythons. Just my 0.02

Now If we were still in youtube mode I would point out the underline parts but we can leave that alone.

I just wonder why do you feel the animals we keep need to be ready to go prowling the wild? I wouldn't be surprised if the bright white lucy got picked off first in the wild before the scaleless snake. I think we can both agree most would likely not survive. I doubt my husky would make it very far in the wild and she's a lot closer to the wild wolf than most dogs people own.

However they do survive in captivity, which is where that line of ball pythons will be living for now on, they might as well forget about the wild. We don't know of any problems that will effect the scaleless ability to survive in captivity, it's all speculation right now. I'm sure it won't take long for anything to come to light, brian made this a very public thing and people want answers.

Maybe my optimism stems from the fact I have scaleless breaded dragon (silkbacks) and a hairless cat (sphinx). The dragon does require lotion every so often to keep his skin from drying out, but besides that he lives life normal as any other dragon, besides the silence of the lambs jokes made. The cat I could argue being hairless actually enhance the survival of the animal in captivity, less allergies and a cat that is more likely to socialize instead of the stereotypical screw you attitude of a normal house cat.

There just seems to be so much emphasis on the animals ability to survive in the wild, which shouldn't that be our last concern?

[OhhWatALoser]

Not the first scaleless ball python, also not the first scaleless snake, I understand that, and scaleless snakes, if what someone previously said is true, can be found in the wild, not really my argument. (Not saying what you said was specifically directed at me either) The animal may be fine, I however wont support it. The biggest issue I see here is that it has not heat pits, something that these animals have for a reason. My point is, where does it stop? There has to be a line where this becomes unmoral, and I feel, personally, that this is it. I guess this is the point where I just step back, observe, and see how this all plays out.

The dermaball never really entered the hobby, one animal came and passed. I think your speculating about the heat pits being an issue. As for where does it stop... everyone has a line. It's wasn't so common when I got in the hobby, but talk to old timers and they will tell you about the days there were people against any morph because they were unnatural. Pastel and Hypo were abominations. Actually I don't know if ball pythons had that kind of blacklash as much as many colubrids did, but there were purists in that sense. We still have people now that will not work with any of the morphs I posted up above. I will wait to actually see how the scaleless does before I draw a line or not.

[Crotalids]

Now If we were still in youtube mode I would point out the underline parts but we can leave that alone.

I just wonder why do you feel the animals we keep need to be ready to go prowling the wild? I wouldn't be surprised if the bright white lucy got picked off first in the wild before the scaleless snake. I think we can both agree most would likely not survive. I doubt my husky would make it very far in the wild and she's a lot closer to the wild wolf than most dogs people own.

However they do survive in captivity, which is where that line of ball pythons will be living for now on, they might as well forget about the wild. We don't know of any problems that will effect the scaleless ability to survive in captivity, it's all speculation right now. I'm sure it won't take long for anything to come to light, brian made this a very public thing and people want answers.

Maybe my optimism stems from the fact I have scaleless breaded dragon (silkbacks) and a hairless cat (sphinx). The dragon does require lotion every so often to keep his skin from drying out, but besides that he lives life normal as any other dragon, besides the silence of the lambs jokes made. The cat I could argue being hairless actually enhance the survival of the animal in captivity, less allergies and a cat that is more likely to socialize instead of the stereotypical screw you attitude of a normal house cat.

There just seems to be so much emphasis on the animals ability to survive in the wild, which shouldn't that be our last concern?

I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone.

Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.

[mechnut450]

I like the look but I would not make a jump to acquire one until I know this one was thriving for at least 2 years.( plus it be years before I could afford one lol)

[snakeman13]

I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone.

Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.

I agree with this 100%.
Just look what happened 3 years ago with the Toffee ball. That whole mess was kept quiet by the big breeder up here in Canada.
He kept quiet about the Albino issue, just so he could recover his investment.
The big guys that invest this kind of $$, will always hide the problems until they recover the $$.
Money is always first with these guys.

[PitOnTheProwl]

You're missing my point. No I would not deliberately breed children with problems but, it's the fact that mistakes happen all the time!

That really is apples to oranges and I wont get into a debate on the problems with human reproduction due not only to ignorance of the people but also the greed of out food growers to pump tons of chemicals in our foods. Last time I checked we were not using chemicals to create our morphs, just selective breeding and luck.


Now to touch on something going on here.
Keep all posts on topic and without all the underhanded bickering.
I understand we all have an opinion but if yours is going to stink up the thread then keep it to yourself.

[Rickys_Reptiles]

It is just me, or does it look like it's head has a cut in it? you can see it more clearly in this photo:

[therunaway]

Looks like a wrinkle.

Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free

[trevo]

And how did you come to this absolutely nonsensical association of what I said and a radical group of animal rights activists?

Why should I sell all my snakes and join PETA just because I don't agree with developing snakes that lack their natural anatomy?

And for your information, I own one wild type ball python, 6 naturally occurring BCI boas, a Dominican Red Mountain Boa(also 100% naturally occurring) and a yellow anaconda. None of which are designer morphs or anatomically missing specimens.

Your statement made no sense, and sets the tone for how seriously I may take you in future debates. If you want to debate like an adult, I'll be right here, if not I'm sure the mods can create a kiddie lounge for you.


Sent From an Enclosure

Yeah, but you still keep snakes, who belong in the wild in a snake so your saying sometimes going against nature is okay, but only if you agree with the degree

[OhhWatALoser]

I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone.

Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.

I agree with this 100%.
Just look what happened 3 years ago with the Toffee ball. That whole mess was kept quiet by the big breeder up here in Canada.
He kept quiet about the Albino issue, just so he could recover his investment.
The big guys that invest this kind of $$, will always hide the problems until they recover the $$.
Money is always first with these guys.

The spider was not a big public youtube announcement. After the snake starts eating and shedding, Brian put himself into a position were he will have to own up to all the questions people have.

Allelic genes are now an issue?

Also quite the accusations both you make. The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?