Morning Gripe: A thought on lowering prices too far

[Powerline Reptiles]

This reminds me of going to meet a guy that had posted on Fauna looking to sell 2 black pastels that were het for pied. He lived about 2 hours away, but I always figure it's better to pick the animals up in person, so I went.

The 15 year old kid that showed up with his Dad to meet me came with two snakes. One was a normal and the other a black pastel. He said he could have sworn they were both black pastel! And the het pied part? He said, "well I know people like Panda pieds, so I thought advertising them as part of a pied project would get people interested in them." "So they aren't het pied." "Well no." And I noticed that the snakes were really skinny. I asked when the last time they ate was and he said he couldn't remember. So we asked how often he fed them; they couldn't have been over 100g. He told me that he doesn't get allowance very often from his dad and so even though he tries to buy them food every two weeks, sometimes he wants to buy other stuff instead. No but really,

Needless to say we left. He yelled and screamed when we refused to buy them that we had really wasted he and his Dad's time. I wanted to strangle him.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but generally:
Kids + The Animal Business = bad situation

[Raven01]

Demand sets the price despite all the whining to the contrary.
Lower prices are simply an acceptance of that reality.
If you want some expensive snakes to sell, I would suggest you head over to BHB with a wheelbarrow full of cash and see if you can't talk him into selling some scaleless head snakes with other genes at play.
Keep in mind not a whole lot of people are lining up to buy snakes in the $8-$25K price range.
A smart person starting out would do well to focus on higher quality animals in the under $800 and under $3K segments. Although focusing on one higher end morph could also pay off (thinking of those blade clowns, GHI, Bamboo and Dave Green's granitey looking BP if that proves genetic) but, it is something we have to remain realistic about. Not everyone else will see the beauty in the same things we do. Demand may or may not materialise or can wan faster than expected.

[JMinILM]

Three options:
Do it for the love of the animals
Put in the time, effort and money to beat the odds and be successful at breeding financially
Get your feelings hurt

[bcr229]

Demand sets the price despite all the whining to the contrary. Lower prices are simply an acceptance of that reality.

Actually both supply and demand set the price. Breeders can only affect demand minimally by providing extra value/service for the customer, such as through stellar customer service and having an excellent reputation, being able to show multi-generational quality in their breeding stock by having pics of parents/grandparents available, etc.

OTOH breeders do have control over supply... but how many breeders do you hear of cutting back on the number of females they're pairing each year? Most are breeding more in an effort to make more money - but that just increases supply, and since the increase is not in reaction to a spike in demand we see a price drop.

This is why I'm staying firmly on the hobby side of the biz/hobby line - because I don't have to breed every female possible every year to try to maximize my profit and stay in business. I don't have to view my animals as assets or liabilities on a balance sheet - and if you're truly running a business you have to do it. If I decide to stop breeding everything with a single gene and concentrate on the few 2-3 gene BP's I have, I'm not in a position where I have to sell off the normals and single-gene animals because they don't generate positive cash flow.

[dsheel1]

I have been following the Ball Python market since I was 15 and I am 31 now. When I started it fascinated me because I was fascinated by how stock market prices were determined, but more importantly how one could capitalize on it. I grew up with a father that thought it was a risky money pit and an uncle that was a day trader. Talk about two extremes that taught me a lot about the number one thing that controls any free market in my opinion. Human Psychology! When people say that the lowering of Ball Python prices is simply due to the little Supply and Demand graph they saw in 8th grade I get quite a chuckle. I don't think that they truly understand how prices are set in a unregulated market because they make no mention of how demand is set. I don't know that I do either as it is an extremely complex concept that has more to do with psychology than most people think. Allow me to try to explain my thoughts. Maybe someone will get some enjoyment out of it. I know I have enjoyed reading everyones thoughts:

Now I will speak of the Ball Python Market from a strictly investment standpoint. I understand that there are plenty of people that do it just for the hobby and won't think this way. These hobbyists are probably not the ones complaining about the market prices so I will ignore that side of the spectrum. I for one grew up catching my own reptiles amphibians etc etc and have kept reptiles for over 20 years now. I have never sold an animal. So don't think I'm one of those people that just does it for the money. For the record if you are one of those people and you have made a decent return on your investment. Good for you. I applaud it. If we look at the Ball Python market as the Stock Market and each morph as an individual stock we will see that there are a few similarities:

1. The publics perception of the market as a whole can have major implications on pricing. People only have so much incremental income that they can use and they have many options. Negative news makes investors move to a different market and also keeps others from entering the market.

2. Individual stock performance can impact the market as a whole. When a stock plummets or certain morph prices falls drastically it scares people away from the market in general. I am of the opinion that setting a morph price at 20k is counterintuitive. Its the same as an IPO having a starting price way too high. Yeah maybe some people will buy at that price but it will fall fast and create a negative news article which will hurt it even more.

3. Demand for an individual stock or morph can be greatly influenced by news whether positive or negative.

How would I do it different? I would do the same thing I do in my current line of work. I create demand.

Maybe one day I will be lucky enough to get my hands on a new morph so I can try out my plan. It would be an amazing experiment. I envy the big guys so much because they get to do this experiment with economics each time. They could and should get a Harvard econ professor to handle the pricing structure of one of the new unknown morphs I know the big boys must have. I bet they would do it for free. I know I would.

I could go on for days about this as I actually did a research paper on it in college(Geaux Tigers!) I don't want to make this too long so I will leave you with one point that I think has been missed.

Just as much as we set the supply each year by how many animals we produce we also set the demand.

Ps. A 10% return is a good return.

[Capt.Britain]

Just as much as we set the supply each year by how many animals we produce we also set the demand.

WOW. Just, wow. What a great post. If you had been my econ teacher in high school, I think I would have understood it a lot better!

[Dr. Pete]

1. He's a kid. Try maybe mentoring him instead. He's inexperienced with everything. You weren't any different at 14. If he listens you helped a kid and he'll do things better. If not be will get frustrated and leave the market. Either way good is accomplished. Don't tear him down too much mate. He's a kid.
2. You claim that you shouldn't be in it for the money yet you're complaining about the financial aspect of it. I'm really confused.
3. There's no shame in wanting to make a profit for your work. There's actually a lot RIGHT with it. Don't be ashamed of making money and turning a profit. You should.

Just a few thoughts that came to mind. They weren't meant to be confrontational. I just really think this kid will fade out from the market. If not, he needs a mentor but doesn't have the maturity to seek it out properly.

[WtGreg]

1. He's a kid. Try maybe mentoring him instead. He's inexperienced with everything. You weren't any different at 14. If he listens you helped a kid and he'll do things better. If not be will get frustrated and leave the market. Either way good is accomplished. Don't tear him down too much mate. He's a kid.
2. You claim that you shouldn't be in it for the money yet you're complaining about the financial aspect of it. I'm really confused.
3. There's no shame in wanting to make a profit for your work. There's actually a lot RIGHT with it. Don't be ashamed of making money and turning a profit. You should.

Just a few thoughts that came to mind. They weren't meant to be confrontational. I just really think this kid will fade out from the market. If not, he needs a mentor but doesn't have the maturity to seek it out properly.

I have to admit, I don't post a lot because I know words can be run with and without discussion and vocal tone, it's hard to read into what people are trying to say sometimes. I think the original post is one of those where I tried to put too much into a posting and it allows things to be "run with" since there is so much to pick at. Since I cannot lock the post to let it fall into the abyss of BP.net and die, I am happy to clarify anything of my intentions along the way, but also think people are taking words and running with them. It was venting too much at once, so it is my error that things may have been skewed along the way.

1: It wasn't a case of mentoring as I wasn't as in depth with him to keep things going enough to do that, but absolutely agree that they need slack and educating. I would never tear a kid down to his/herself, but this original post was venting about my thoughts, not me saying I yelled at the kid... Similarly: I had a kid email me with an anything but professional email about snakes posted on another site and advised him how to be more professional that the approach he gave to be taken seriously, which was all he really was requesting (his initial email read as "I'm 14, if you have a problem with that, f**k off" (and it wasn't based off the original posting here either)). I told him it isn't about everyone, or me, hating kids, but it is a risk and can be difficult as well, so alot more caution has to be taken with kids. In the end the kid needs to bypass this by showing he is mature enough to work with, not insist he deserves the respect because even as an adult you have to earn it, and he is battling an age stigma as well. He very well understood, listened, and his messages after that were pleasant.
Different situation all together, but another good example that kids (and adults) don't always see that they could be causing their own problems. Now that he was advised that he is not presenting himself well (and especially on first impressions), he can work on that and hopefully be a great future breeder. The story goes on, but for a different day...

2: You aren't the first to say this... I have said in previous posts: It isn't as much about the money unless your lively hood depends on your profit, but in terms of the collection and hobby side, both things depend on a certain amount of income.
I, and others, could not afford to have a collection if everything holds the value of the normal ball. The money spent on feeding, caging, etc is a consideration when you have years to work on a single project. I can almost guarantee that if there wasn't a value to balls, we wouldn't see the wonderful morphs available now as people would not have bred them out that far, or even imported them initially.

3: I'm not saying there is any shame in it. We work hard (some harder than others), we deserve a something for our efforts, and in many cases with me it is simply having the next snake to work with. Unfortunately people see wrong in that attitude. More unfortunate is though I do not see profit as it all goes back into the snakes (I even lose money), I have seen responses here suggesting that I am approaching snakes from a greed factor just to have an argument against my initial post and some of the responses...

More on number 2 since it seems to come up a few times so far (not meant as an attack on your questions/points, so I am keeping it separate from my answers above ):
Also you learn that alot of people say "I am in it for the snakes, not the money," but in talking to them about why they really got into the hobby, or stay in the hobby, that pretty snakes is a perk, but there is a drive for the money. I have met alot who say the one thing and mean another (and of course I don't BS and say "money isn't important", but rather say why the money is important to staying in the hobby, yet it is not read that way (my initial complaint about the kid even says he can afford the hobby because he doesn't have to pay for his collection... I don't have people paying for me to have these snakes, I pay out of pocket and what they bring in)) - I have yet to see a profit, but I need to afford to continue having my snakes, and the second someone says something like that, it is turned into "he only breeds for the profit" by the same people who are in it for the profit reason but won't admit it. So I simply say to all reading this: If the collection is not paying for itself, how would you afford to have the collection? That's the importance of the money in relation to the hobby, but no where in this post am I saying "I breed for the profit and am upset to watch my extra income go down. The importance in the money is me having more money." Funny how although I say in yet another post now that I haven't seen profit from this and lose alot each year forwarding my projects and feeding them, it is about staying in the hobby, someone in a few weeks will post the same thing, I guarantee it.

[stewz2G]

I myself would try to keep the market changing to keep prices regulated. However, when everyone has the same thing and someone doesn't move on the prices we all hold them too long raising our overhead. But now that I have had my whole collection stolen, I find myself looking for deals on basics with little to no relief. I have to buy someone else's idea or a bloated price on a breeder they no longer want. Now that i'm back to square one I would not mind seeing some reasonable bargaining happen. Not just the well established dominates of the industry control whats going on. Seems like its own little government in a sense. I have even seen some of my snakes online being sold dirt cheap because they just wanted cash, while my family now struggles because that was part of our income. Yet those buying these high dollar snakes from people they have never heard of and know very little don't even take the time to figure out why they just got a woma banana for 500 bucks. Maybe you should report these deals or at least background check where and what your're getting. It hurts the little guys more than you will ever know. Just saying

[Ohpleez]

bingo!

OK I am a fairly new owner.....love Ball Pythons more then I ever thought possible...just observing lately.....this seems no different then the animals left at the pound to be put down....always a prettier....younger....cheaper....kinda sad don't you think?
I don't have a solution just my 2 cents.....I love these animals!