Desert Female Concerns

[BlueMoonExotics]

I'm seeing a lot of concerned people over on this thread http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ming-Tomorrow! about people suddenly deciding to breed their desert females because of this big news. I didn't want to derail that thread so I figured I'd post my own.

I still consider myself pretty new to ball pythons in general and I'm not all that familiar with the desert gene other than to stay away from them because the females have "issues" so, I'm sorry if these questions have been asked before. Just asking out of curiosity and to maybe save some of these females that may be put at risk. With that said, I do believe this should be left to the experts until things are sorted out and confirmed if there really is a risk to the females. However, I do believe more should be done to sort it out or at least talk about what has been done so that people don't just jump on the bandwagon at the first tiny glance of hope.

Are the issues with the females consistent and are they MOSTLY life threatening? I guess what I'm asking is what exactly is the "issue" they have? So far in that thread I've read slugs and eggbound females but is that all? I ask because this can happen with other reptiles especially with their first season of breeding. Sometimes after their first bad season they do just fine. Kind of like with humans or other animals for that matter.... the first is usually the hardest.

Has there been a proven explanation on what exactly is causing the issues? A deformity of some kind maybe and if so, have all desert females proven to have this same deformity? Or maybe it's the eggs or development of the eggs themselves?

How many desert females have actually been bred and proven to have these "issues" and was there a particular line that was having the problems? Was there a study done to confirm that out of ____ female deserts ____ of them were infertile ____ of them slugged out and ____ of them became eggbound. Information on what they were bred to as well.

How long ago was it that everyone stopped breeding these females due to them having problems? I thought desert was a newish morph but could it be possible that through out-breeding even a little bit, there's a chance that the issues aren't as common anymore except with the original females?

Again, I'm not saying one way or the other but I would like more information than what is given, which is almost nothing about what is happening with these females. All you really hear is that they're bad and stay away unless you want them as a pet only. If deserts do come out of those eggs, I'm sure having more information for the owner would be beneficial, as well as people thinking about breeding and risking their females. I know that depending on the answers to the above questions, I probably would not risk my female (if I had one) knowing that she has a very slim to none chance but if someone just told me in general "this person had luck on this lottery ticket but don't try it yourself" I might think on getting one anyway.

[SaintTawny]

Here are a few other threads with varying length discussions about the issues people have discovered with Desert females:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ghlight=desert

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ghlight=desert

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ghlight=desert

And also, a thread on Fauna complete with pictures of surgery to remove bound eggs from the oviduct and a description of their findings during the operation:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...=desert+female

[BlueMoonExotics]

Thanks for the links but I didn't quite see what I was looking for. Most of them are honestly just hear say with only one that I could find where someone shared their story of a female needing surgery to remove the eggs which was actually posted on both Kingsnake and Fauna (pretty popular websites). One instance of a female slugging out posted on multiple (popular) websites (where it can spread fast to seem like a much bigger problem than what it really is) isn't much to go on. Reading all these threads makes it sound like there's been a huge amount of dead females because people kept trying to breed the unbreedable but if there really are tons of people with dead desert females, I think it would be beneficial right now if they would speak up. Show pictures or even just speak for yourself (or your snakes). What were the circumstances of the female (slow growth, small size, bred young, bred undersized)? What generation is she? What line is she from? What was she bred to? What temps was she kept at and do YOU think it's because of a particular reason (environmental stress from changing environments or change in feeding strategies)? What happened once she was bred and ovulated (had slugs or became eggbound)?

I know it's hard to talk about the death of a loved pet, especially when you may see it as being your fault. I truly believe less people would try it if there was more to go on. You know those pictures of black lungs that they show people to scare them away from smoking? That's the basic idea but this (to me) seems all too familiar with all the reading I've done on the Caramel Albinos (which I do own and hold out hope for) but again it is mostly all hear say. Only recently has anyone come forward to say that there are things you can do to avoid them from slugging out and kinking. Maybe it's the same with Desert females? Although, in the case of Caramels, the females aren't dying from being eggbound. People are basically shooed off of the forums when they want more than the one experience with these Desert girls, but I don't really blame them to keep asking if there's nothing else anyone can show them other than a single female with obvious deformities (it happens, even in normals). If someone is going to revive hope in this gene with pictures and "proof" then it's only right to counter it and revive (with facts and proof) the reasons why they shouldn't try it. I'll keep digging to see what I can come up with myself but if you have a first hand account then please do share it. Also, please understand, this isn't intended to cause a bunch of drama as I've seen on some of the other threads so please don't turn it into something it's not.

[Buttons]

Thanks for the links but I didn't quite see what I was looking for. Most of them are honestly just hear say with only one that I could find where someone shared their story of a female needing surgery to remove the eggs which was actually posted on both Kingsnake and Fauna (pretty popular websites). .

and this is mostly what you're going to find. There has to be hundreds of female deserts out there and people are pushing OPINIONS that they are a lethal gene. The fact is NOTHING has been proven yet. Especially not since there are now multiple viable clutches (apparently) all from desert females.

[SaintTawny]

Honestly, I would love a candid conversation about what people have PERSONALLY seen with their desert females, complete with as many pictures as can be found. Unfortunately, I don't have high hopes for this, because the nature of a "hobby" that many people have made careers out of is that it can be quite secretive, doubly so when there's a problem. You've seen the reaction some people get when they say they bred a Desert female. They get skewered. Now, I will always always try to phrase my disapproval in a way that is not an attack on the breeder, because I don't think anyone deserves to be attacked like that for trying their luck. Doubly so if they've just lost a dear pet or a whole clutch of eggs. I wouldn't try it, and if you asked me whether you should I'd say no, but what's done is done. Regardless, people are getting flamed whenever they post an attempt, and everyone else sees that. If it doesn't deter them, but they get the same poor results, why would they share that and welcome the hate?

Can we talk about this like adults? Some of us are capable. Some of us are not. Even if we get a lively and respectful conversation going, all it takes is one sourpuss to tear things up and get people heated and then the whole thread gets shut down or off track.

Is there a way we can initiate this conversation with the understanding (and help from the mods) that any vicious comments or personal attacks will be deleted promptly? I would genuinely love it if this could be simply a place for documenting problems without the hate.

[BlueMoonExotics]

I would agree with you both. Most if not ALL of the other threads are hear say and end up making the whole thread topic become an uncomfortable subject to talk about. If people are bashed for talking about something then of course they won't talk about it. In my short time in the ball python hobby (or even my longer time in the reptile hobby for that matter) I have heard a lot about the secrecy that goes on. I'm still not sure as to why, since the reason for being in a hobby with animals is SUPPOSED to be because you love the animals! I'm guessing greed or with things like this, shame is the reasons why people keep a big secret. Lets try to remember that breeding these snakes and having them slug out or become eggbound is not just a loss for the breeder but the animals themselves are at risk. This thread is intended to get facts and information, NOT to bash people.

[EmberBall]

At one of the San Diego shows, a few years ago, I talked to the Sloan guys about a cool snake they had for sale. I believe it was a Lesser but cannot remember for sure. It was just a brilliant example of whatever morph it was, and in the conversation, they told me it hatched out of a Desert Clutch. I said a Desert clutch as in a Desert female laid the eggs. They told me it was a clutch of several slugs and one or two or three good eggs. I continued talking with them and they stated that a friend or someone they knew had several Desert females lay about 45 or so eggs, and something like all but 1 or 2 were bad/slugs. I cannot state for the record that this is exactly correct, it was a few years ago...but if you get 40 plus eggs and less than 10% are viable, that is not a great thing. If anyone knows the Sloan guys, maybe they can comment.

Dave

[BlueMoonExotics]

Again that sounds like hear say BUT if it were true, then that would mean the females ARE laying eggs with some (maybe not many) being viable. Which (to me) is much better than "you're going to kill your snake if you breed it". Again, this is hear say, so my words are only based on that (don't rush out to breed your females just yet!). It isn't putting up a good fight for reasons not to breed them unless you said that out of those females (however many there were that laid the eggs), most or some of them died or became eggbound, but it would be good information if someone who had the first hand experience would come to back up that story.

[angllady2]

I would like to see some first hand experience as well. Look, we've all heard the horror stories. We've all seen people dragged through hell for even thinking about breeding a Desert female. The viciousness and endlessly repeated tales make it sound like there is no one left out there who would even consider breeding a Desert female. Then something like this pops up and the hatred goes on. I am not interested in another blame game, nor another muckraking thread. In fact, if anyone with experience in breeding Deserts would like to PM me and share that experience to avoid such nonsense, that would be most gratefully accepted.

But I, like others, would like to know the facts, not hearsay and slander. Have you bred Desert females? How many of them? How many years have you tried? Did you get any viable eggs at all? Did you have any medical complications with your females? Have you bred only single gene females? Double gene? Triple? Do they all share the same problems, or does it vary from female to female or from single gene to combos? If you have decided to stop breeding Deserts, what made you decide to quit? If you are still trying, what makes you keep hoping? Have you lost any Desert females for reasons you feel directly relate to breeding? Have you lost any Desert females for reasons you feel were not related to breeding? In your experience, are Desert females harder to feed? Raise to breeding size? Slow to breed? Slow to produce eggs of any kind, even slugs? Do you think age could be a factor? Size?

There are so many questions I would love to have answered in a respectful way by people in the know about these things. Pieces of the puzzle I guess you might say. Not because I want to bash someone, nor even necessarily because I want to rush out and buy a cheap Desert female and try to breed it. But simply to have a better understanding of these problems and possible solutions. I know for example that HGW supers are lethal. Or if they hatch they fail to thrive. But there is a lot more information available on the who and why of Pearls than there is with Deserts. I think mostly because rumors fly from post to post and from website to website and no one bothers to check how accurate they are because it is accepted knowledge that Desert females should not be bred.

So please, anyone who can share first hand experience with us, please do so. I promise to keep the conversation civil and as best I can intelligent.

Gale

[PitOnTheProwl]

I am interested in seeing where this goes to try and expand my personal knowledge.

I might sound a little stupid but here it goes.
Lets just say that a breedable female desert is asking for problems BUT what says that adding in a combo gene doesn't change any of this?
Could morph (x) change the makeup of the desert females problem with breeding?

I know it has been mentioned that we all do this for the love of our animals and I don't want to see any animals die due to reckless abandonment.
Though, if someone isn't willing to take the chance then how do we make any advancements in our hobby?
Why do we continue to breed spiders and spider/combos with the wobble?


EDIT: Keep in mind, what I do in my house I might not recommend someone else do in theirs.