Anyone have experience with leatherbacks?

[Dracoluna]

My beardie girl is 12 now and she's been letting me know that she's done with the educational programs I do which means it's time to get and train up a new dragon. I love the look of the leather backs but I do have cats in the house. Wyrwrenth has never had an issue protecting herself and letting the other animals know who's boss but how protective are the smaller scales of the leather backs? If anyone has experience with adults, I'd love to hear it. I'll be buying the new dragon in person as I prefer to buy based on personality rather than looks especially as it will have to deal with other pets and then kids as well. Thanks for any input on this.

[mackynz]

Wait...you let your beardie just wander around with your cats? I can't think of any other reason it would need to be defending itself from cats. Why not keep it in a proper enclosure? That way you don't have to worry about it defending itself and how tough it is wouldn't matter.

If you're worried about how well it can stand up to cats it's not going to make all that much difference whether it's a leatherback or not, teeth and claws will find purchase either way.


Maybe I was reading that wrong, but it seemed like you were concerned about your cats getting at a new one and your current one fends them off....

[OctagonGecko729]

Yeah, any wound that would kill a leatherback would also kill a normal bearded. Also, not sure why beardeds would need protective scales in captivity.

[Dracoluna]

Ok, probably could have phrased that better though my dragon has been 'free-range' quite a bit. I do not plan on just letting a hatchling loose in the house but with cats, I do like an animal that can protect itself if it's going to be out in the house around the others. Dragons are too intelligent to be kept locked away in a quiet room 24/7 IMO which means they need to be in the main part of the house. Cats are the same way. This means that the tank is in the main part of the house (not in the reptile room where the snakes and tortoise are kept) where cats may find a way to open it. Wyrwrenth's cage is actually open-topped though the cats do not bother her as they know better. When we foster, they also have to learn the dragon is not to be messed with. If a cats claws are trimmed properly, they can not harm a beardie with regular scales. Yes, teeth can kill a dragon but in my girl's case, I'd be amazed if a cat with that intent could get that close first. I'm more concerned with cats losing toes than one of them hurting her to be honest. She grew up with the cats and treats them with respect unless they bother her. Then they find they lose chunks of fur and have a furious little dragon chasing them. Cats aren't stupid and neither are dragons. The same went for my last dragon. Neither ever were harmed by a cat, dog, or any other creature (except the lightning bug my first dragon saw the same time I did...).

Either way, silkies are out as their skin is far too fragile in my opinion to have and I'm not very fond of the look either. Should a cat/kitten tap a leatherback with trimmed claws, I'm just curious as to whether or not it would hold up the same as a normal dragon. Their scales are part of their protective armor and I'm not sure how much the leatherback part would affect that. Obviously, they will not be tossed in with a pack of hungry barn cats but I do want to know if they are out and a cat taps them, if that will be more damaging than to a regular dragon because it only pisses off a normal dragon, not physically hurts them.

[OctagonGecko729]

Yeah but I think the point I was trying to make here is that in captivity there should be no need for your dragon to need scales to protect itself. I'd say bring the dragon out and put the cats in a room if they are going to mess with her in any way. After shes done walking around, put her back in a locked cage and let the cats out. It is also very stressful for an animal to need to defend themselves even if you perceive them to be in a dominate position in the encounter. So yeah, I'd keep them seperate.

[Dracoluna]

I understand your concern/points and agree to some extent but I also think that it's healthy for animals to have a more active lifestyle even if that means interacting with other animals. I've had Wyrwrenth since she was a hatchling and for the majority of her life, she had run of the house. As I bred and showed cats (along with rescue work), she was interacting with them on a regular basis. As a hatchling, she was in a 300 gallon aquarium but once she hit about a foot long, I figured she'd be ok out. This was before I spent hours and hours online researching 'proper' care but I'm also a big proponent of giving animals the most enrichment possible. Dragons in the wild will roam relatively large areas and live a much more active lifestyle than our pets do for the most part. I had my brother's dragon (2 years younger than mine but from the same breeder) who passed away from heart failure and even the vets I spoke with said it's not uncommon for beardies to only live 7-8 years because they are fed too much and given too little exercise. This was the case with my brother's dragon. Mine, however, has lived an active lifestyle and despite the occasional (and what I feel is natural) stress from dealing with the cats, is 12 years old, runs down her crickets when she's given a treat, and loves being out in the house. She hates the 40 gallon she's in at night now but because of her age, I don't like the idea of leaving her out 24/7 anymore. Though I don't recommend this for everyone, I do feel that in my situation, the benefits of a healthier and longer lived dragon outweigh the minor risks. I also feel that they are minor as I know my cats well enough to realize that they will leave her alone. I've had animals all my life and know that having a dragon loose in the house isn't the best for most households. In my case it works and is no more dangerous than putting heat lamps on an enclosure.

If you still have concerns, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions about how I've done things or why. One of the great things on forums is getting to share and learn ideas. My way of keeping her is far from conventional and I understand that it might be concerning to others.

[OctagonGecko729]

Enrichment is not being in an environment where you need to defend or attack other animals. Taking her out for 1-2 hours under close supervision is fine so that she can stretch her legs and enjoy tongue tasting the furniture. Exposing her to threats from other animals, unsupervised at that, in captivity where it could be prevented but is rather chosen by the keeper is frankly bad husbandry to say the least.

One of most keeper's (including my own) guiding principles is to reduce the stress and suffering of every animal within our collection that we can. If we take on breeding animals and we get a snake that has to be put down, we have to be prepared to euthanize in the most effective way, even if it is something as hard to do as pithing. If we have feeders, we treat them as humane as possible to relieve them of stress up until the moment they are fed. If we have animals which are stressed because of incorrect husbandry, we fix it, even if it means purchasing hundreds of dollars worth of equipment to achieve those parameters.

Your example is literally like me throwing a 500g ball python in with my 3ft savannah monitor just because I can do it so the ball python gets some "enrichment". Except, if I'm understanding right, it is also unsupervised which makes it worse.

Instead of letting them free roam, why not target train them with food. Get them tong trained and then make them chase you around the house with a feeder at the end of the tongs. Works for my savannah monitor, which is a even more intelligent species then beardeds and requires higher levels of enrichment. I can get him doing backflips when he is jumping for feeders. We also let our bearded roam the house but it is for 1-2 hours and we do not have any predators in the house at all. If we did have cats or a dog that showed too much interest, we would let the bearded walk in a locked room, or lock the mammals up and let the bearded roam.

[Dracoluna]

Enrichment is not being in an environment where you need to defend or attack other animals. Taking her out for 1-2 hours under close supervision is fine so that she can stretch her legs and enjoy tongue tasting the furniture. Exposing her to threats from other animals, unsupervised at that, in captivity where it could be prevented but is rather chosen by the keeper is frankly bad husbandry to say the least.

One of most keeper's (including my own) guiding principles is to reduce the stress and suffering of every animal within our collection that we can. If we take on breeding animals and we get a snake that has to be put down, we have to be prepared to euthanize in the most effective way, even if it is something as hard to do as pithing. If we have feeders, we treat them as humane as possible to relieve them of stress up until the moment they are fed. If we have animals which are stressed because of incorrect husbandry, we fix it, even if it means purchasing hundreds of dollars worth of equipment to achieve those parameters.

Your example is literally like me throwing a 500g ball python in with my 3ft savannah monitor just because I can do it so the ball python gets some "enrichment". Except, if I'm understanding right, it is also unsupervised which makes it worse.

Instead of letting them free roam, why not target train them with food. Get them tong trained and then make them chase you around the house with a feeder at the end of the tongs. Works for my savannah monitor, which is a even more intelligent species then beardeds and requires higher levels of enrichment. I can get him doing backflips when he is jumping for feeders. We also let our bearded roam the house but it is for 1-2 hours and we do not have any predators in the house at all. If we did have cats or a dog that showed too much interest, we would let the bearded walk in a locked room, or lock the mammals up and let the bearded roam.

Opening your mind to other ideas might be a good start and here is why...

You mention "reducing" stress and suffering. I aim for no suffering. If an animal is suffering, the keeper either shouldn't be keeping the animal or adjust how they are keeping them. This requires that you don't look at an animal simply as a species where there is only one possible way to keep them. There is a reason husbandry practices have changed over the years and that is because people have watched their animals and discovered other ways of doing things. The only time that Wyrwrenth has shown noticeable stress is when in what you would deem a 'proper enclosure'. She doesn't flare up, show poor color, or otherwise show signs of stress even when interacting with the other animals. She actually has been showing more stress when being used in the educational programs I do which is why she's being retired.

I haven't considered target training and may very well try that with her to see how she responds to it. She seems to understand the idea of treat rewarded behavior which is something I've been using for many years in our programs. She gets a small treat before the handling sessions which, with the younger groups, mean lots of hands petting and touching her from her snout to her tail. As she starts getting tired of it, she'll look up at me and that's that. She gets a treat after I put her back in her travel carrier where she settles in to destress. While I don't see her doing flips, I would be a little concerned about forcing her to jump as I'm not sure if bone degeneration occurs in beardies the same way it does in humans. Unfortunately, I haven't found many people with dragons her age to relate to though I've considered taking her in for x-rays to document how older age affects them. At this point, she has no problem jumping about a foot in the air to get from the sunken family room up to the level of the rest of the house.

1-2 hours a day is not nearly enough time in my opinion for them to get reasonable exercise. In the wild, they are moving throughout the day with periods of rest for basking. They do not exercise the way humans or even most mammals are capable of by putting all of their exercise into a small span of time while being sedentary the rest. Unless you provide a very large enclosure, it's impossible for them to get proper movement and not only does this lead the obesity issues myself and various vets have been seeing but I have a feeling it's also related to the number of impaction problems that have been occurring and directly affects their shortened life spans.

As for being unsupervised, yes, this is the case once I'm certain I know the way she'll interact with any new animals in the house. I know how my cats and dogs react to her which is with indifference and they even are conscious of her, stepping around her instead of on her. With new fosters, I take care to closely supervise their initial interaction with her to see how things go. If there is any sign of aggression from the cat, I will step in. I do not let her strictly fend for herself. If this means staying a day or two in her enclosure, so be it though she regularly stops eating when kept in it for extended periods of time (another sign of the stress it puts on her). In this way it is not even comparable to the idea of putting a 500g ball in with a savannah monitor. There is a reason I do not own savannahs though I think they are beautiful and intelligent creatures. They are also eating machines that require massive enclosures that I do not have the space to provide.

Though I'm not sure how it has a bearing on this discussion/debate, you mention having to be able to humanely euthanize animals as part of being a responsible breeder. Not only do I agree with you on this but I have had to do it. I bred and showed cats for about 10 years actively including taking care of pregnant queens for other breeders because I have the knowledge on how to deal with difficult births. More than once I had to humanely euthanize kittens that were born with deformities they would be unable to survive with. I've worked for vet clinics and attended vet school for 2 years. Trust me when I say I understand the repercussions that come with breeding any animal. On top of that, I feel that breeders are responsible for every single animal they produce. To this day, if someone who bought a kitten from me 15 years ago comes to me saying they can no longer care for the animal, it is my responsibility to take that animal and care for them because I am the reason they are here. The same has always gone for my snakes that I've bred. Fortunately, I've never had a snake that had to be euthanized though I have taken adults that owners could no longer care for or wanted.

I realize that you're reacting to what you see as a dangerous situation but all I'm asking is that you open your mind to other ways of doing things and realize that there may be different ways that are just as good as yours though it may not be what's listed on the majority of care sheets.

[mackynz]

1-2 hours a day is not nearly enough time in my opinion for them to get reasonable exercise. In the wild, they are moving throughout the day with periods of rest for basking. They do not exercise the way humans or even most mammals are capable of by putting all of their exercise into a small span of time while being sedentary the rest. Unless you provide a very large enclosure, it's impossible for them to get proper movement and not only does this lead the obesity issues myself and various vets have been seeing but I have a feeling it's also related to the number of impaction problems that have been occurring and directly affects their shortened life spans.

Do you understand what impaction is? Not being sedentary will help but that's not going to cause it. And yeah, beardies don't 'exercise' like humans, but how is being antagonized by cats proper exercise?

I don't think the proper way to get your animal exercise is to put it in the same room, unprotected as a predator which cats very much are. Keeping predator and prey together is, to be frank, just stupid. I'm not sure if this is just some over-elaborate troll or if you're serious.

But I do think that once you reach the point where you have to ask whether or not a new animal will be able to protect itself from harm or death by your other animals then maybe, just maybe you're doing it wrong. Your animals aren't going to all get along, you aren't Snow White. I can't even imagine the stress your cats are putting on your other animals.

I'm done with this. It's just sad.

[Dracoluna]

Do you understand what impaction is? Not being sedentary will help but that's not going to cause it. And yeah, beardies don't 'exercise' like humans, but how is being antagonized by cats proper exercise?

I don't think the proper way to get your animal exercise is to put it in the same room, unprotected as a predator which cats very much are. Keeping predator and prey together is, to be frank, just stupid. I'm not sure if this is just some over-elaborate troll or if you're serious.

But I do think that once you reach the point where you have to ask whether or not a new animal will be able to protect itself from harm or death by your other animals then maybe, just maybe you're doing it wrong. Your animals aren't going to all get along, you aren't Snow White. I can't even imagine the stress your cats are putting on your other animals.

I'm done with this. It's just sad.

<sigh>
Yes, I understand impaction just fine and no, she isn't being antagonized by cats for exercise. Is she in the same house, out with cats? Yes. They get along just fine without anyone attacking/eating/killing anyone else if you can believe it. If they didn't, they wouldn't be out together the same way I wouldn't let my dogs mingle with my cats if they had the inclination to attack them. Wonder how many people allow those two species to interact on a daily basis unsupervised...