Feeding new baby monitor

[AdamL8]

The research on the UVB is still up in the air, which is why I recommended he go with it, its better to be safe. Providing D3 through the diet may be enough but I really have no idea.

It's not really "up in the air". It has been proven time and time again that it is unnecessary. That being said, There is no downside to using it as far as we are aware. It's just an extra cost that may or may not help but is not going to harm the monitor to live without.

For a smaller savannah a bask spot of 115-130F is definitely OK so long as they have access to a full body bask. The "one light bulb" approach is not sufficient. For any monitor over one foot I would recommend the higher temperatures (130-140F).

Tanks definitely can provide the proper gradient 80F-95F if you enclose them with plywood (I use the PE-1 and the accurite thermostats to measure heat). You will get heat "leakage" from the glass but this is solved by adding multiple flood lights. I do agree with you though, it is definitely easier to maintain that heat gradient the larger the cage is and the more the materials resist heat escape.

In a 20-30 gallon tank 2 bulbs will be overheating it. This is where you require more space. If your basking spot covers the snout to vent then you are fine. The issue with larger wattage standard heat bulbs is that they dry out the air more so than low wattage directed heat bulbs such as halogen floods and the heat from them goes all over instead of where you want it. This was not something that you mentioned and surely knew but I figured it was good to add for anybody who reads through this and does not know it already. I disagree that 115 degrees is a sufficient basking temperature for any size Sav. I don't have anything specifically to reference for this but I know that they do make use of 130+ basking at all sizes and 130-145 will mean that the monitor can digest food faster and more efficiently so why not allow it to do so? This does not require adding more bulbs and overheating the small enclosure. Just raising or lowering the basking spot will do the trick. Going much higher than 150F would likely begin to get dangerous although I have read that they have been found to use basking sites as high as 155. I personally keep mine around 140-145 and would not go higher.

My concern with the fish tanks not providing the proper gradient is not just about them having the right temperature extremes as much as it is that they do not have the space for the gradient to be gradual at all. A large cage allows space at either end for the lowest temperature and the highest. You could have a proper gradient in an enclosure less than 8 feet but at 8 feet it is incredibly easy to do so. With a large enough glass tank that is properly modified it could be usable for a monitor indefinitely. However, It would most likely be cheaper and more effective to make it from wood. The cost of enough glass that is thick enough to make an all glass 8x4x4 would be insane. That doesn't include the logistics of keeping it all together with the weight of the dirt, mounting lights, and mounting a door of some type to open it. It just isn't feasible and since you would likely have to insulate it anyways what would be the point?

Monitors are definitely tough as nails and you need only to look at the vast distribution of Varanids to understand that. You can find them on just about every continent in many different types of habitats. Yes, they all specialize in those environments as you would expect with natural selection but their builds are all relatively similar for a reason, because they work in a multitude of harsh environments. Again, I am not saying that it is ethical to exploit this toughness in captivity and slack up on the care of these animals.

I agree about your improper conditions paragraph as well. I just don't see how what I have recommended is improper conditions.

Monitors as a whole are indeed "tough as nails" but not in the way that your previous post had made it sound. We are specifically talking about Savannah Monitors in this instance and the fact that they are often housed incorrectly even though the owners think they have the husbandry perfect (not talking about the OP who is making an effort) because the monitor has not yet died or begun to show signs of health issues. These guys don't show any obvious signs until it is practically too late. What you recommended was not necessarily wrong and would be fine for a short time but parts of it would need to be changed to ensure the health of the monitor was not affected.

If we want to use the term "fish tank" to mean any glass enclosure then we have to universalize that completely. So, are the 20' x 20' glass enclosures at some of the major zoos incapable of providing a proper environment for Varanids?

Zoos are able to closely and expertly monitor (no pun intended) the health of their animals all day every day as it is their job to do so. They are extremely well equipped to regulate temperatures, humidity, and food intake. Their enclosures are usually a concrete and thick glass mix and are built to hold in heat and humidity. Standard fish tanks that are used in homes are very different from this and in a fresh from the factory state are not suitable for any monitor. That being said, they can be altered to be usable as I stated in one of the above responses.

[OctagonGecko729]

Where have you found the research on the UVB?

I had previously thought that UVB wasn't necessary but in the last year ran across a few folks who have been using UVB with success. I personally just D3 every feeder that I throw in but I did notice more activity out of my Sav when I put a UVB in for several weeks. This is all anecdotal though of course.

I apologize for my lack of clarity in previous posts. I only meant that if the OP makes the changes I originally recommended that his Sav will be o-k until he completes his wooden build and of course sooner is better then later.

[AdamL8]

Where have you found the research on the UVB?

I had previously thought that UVB wasn't necessary but in the last year ran across a few folks who have been using UVB with success. I personally just D3 every feeder that I throw in but I did notice more activity out of my Sav when I put a UVB in for several weeks. This is all anecdotal though of course.

I don't think that any formal study has ever been done on the effects of UVB on monitor lizards but I have read accounts from many well informed long term keepers on other forums who have successfully raised multiple monitors of different species from hatchlings to adults with no UVB. I don't actually know of anyone who uses UVB other than Infernalis who got UVB tube bulbs on sale cheaper than fluorescent tube bulbs although they are too high to really be giving off any benefit. I think that bright lighting contributes a fair bit to activity so that could possibly be the benefit that you were seeing. Regardless, Extra activity does not constitute it being necessary although if you have the bulbs there's no reason to not use them.

[Capray]

I don't think that any formal study has ever been done on the effects of UVB on monitor lizards but I have read accounts from many well informed long term keepers on other forums who have successfully raised multiple monitors of different species from hatchlings to adults with no UVB. I don't actually know of anyone who uses UVB other than Infernalis who got UVB tube bulbs on sale cheaper than fluorescent tube bulbs although they are too high to really be giving off any benefit. I think that bright lighting contributes a fair bit to activity so that could possibly be the benefit that you were seeing. Regardless, Extra activity does not constitute it being necessary although if you have the bulbs there's no reason to not use them.

Well if you're trying to somewhat imitate the natural habitat, monitors are often seen out in the sun. It's not like the animals they eat roll in calcium powder before getting eaten... so if we really provided the "proper habitat" would that even be necessary?

[AdamL8]

Well if you're trying to somewhat imitate the natural habitat, monitors are often seen out in the sun. It's not like the animals they eat roll in calcium powder before getting eaten... so if we really provided the "proper habitat" would that even be necessary?

Imitating the wild is not the full goal. The goal is to do it better than the wild. Imitating the wild for looks is fine and for the most part also the husbandry but there are things that we are able to improve upon in captivity. They grow quicker in captivity due to a constant supply of food. This means that they need more calcium than their wild counterparts to keep up with the demand.

[Dehlol]

I don't "want" to do anything. I'm telling the OP that he will be ok in the cage he is in for 3-4 months which is a 40 gallon if he makes the changes, which he has done. My savannah was in a 4' 4' 4' box at 5 months.

40 gallon is not acceptable for 3-4 months. You are 100% incorrect and have no business owning a monitor if you feel this is correct.

The research on the UVB is still up in the air, which is why I recommended he go with it, its better to be safe. Providing D3 through the diet may be enough but I really have no idea.

UVB is NOT needed for a monitor.

For a smaller savannah a bask spot of 115-130F is definitely ok so long as they have access to a full body bask. The "one light bulb" approach is not sufficient. For any monitor over one foot I would recommend the higher temperatures (130-140F).

No. 115 is not ok.

Tanks definitely can provide the proper gradient 80F-95F if you enclose them with plywood (I use the PE-1 and the accurite thermostats to measure heat). You will get heat "leakage" from the glass but this is solved by adding multiple flood lights. I do agree with you though, it is definitely easier to maintain that heat gradient the larger the cage is and the more the materiels resist heat escape.

Why enclose it with plywood when you can just REMOVE THE GLASS AND USE JUST THE PLYWOOD!!! There is zero reason to use a glass tank. It's not cheaper, it's never better, it's not easier. How hard is it to make and seal a box, and put some dirt in it? It's really not ! It's just not as "pretty".

Monitors are definitely tough as nails and you need only to look at the vast distribution of Varanids to understand that. You can find them on just about every continent in many different types of habitats. Yes, they all specialize in those environments as you would expect with natural selection but their builds are all relatively similar for a reason, because they work in a multitude of harsh environments. Again, I am not saying that it is ethical to exploit this toughness in captivity and slack up on the care of these animals.

Monitors are tough as nails but 99.9% of them never see 5 years of age in captivity. Good logic champ, tough as nails but don't reach 25% of their expected life. Tough as nails but 98% don't live past a year or 2. Yeah, you sure convinced me. Can they take a lot of abuse and recover? Sure, it sometimes happens, but does that make them tough as nails? Nope.

I agree about your improper conditions paragraph as well. I just dont see how what I have recommended is improper conditions.

If we want to use the term "fish tank" to mean any glass enclosure then we have to universalize that completely. So, are the 20' x 20' glass enclosures at some of the major zoos incapable of providing a proper environment for Varanids?

Yes. Most of the enclosures at major zoos are poor. I've told reptile curators at zoos that- when they feed to little, don't offer whole prey, don't provide hot enough temps, and offer no dirt in favor of bark or other "display" substrate. Most zoos are clueless in terms of monitor care.

Where have you found the research on the UVB?

I had previously thought that UVB wasn't necessary but in the last year ran across a few folks who have been using UVB with success. I personally just D3 every feeder that I throw in but I did notice more activity out of my Sav when I put a UVB in for several weeks. This is all anecdotal though of course.

I apologize for my lack of clarity in previous posts. I only meant that if the OP makes the changes I originally recommended that his Sav will be o-k until he completes his wooden build and of course sooner is better then later.

His sav won't be ok for 3-4 months in an aqarium. Lol.

[OctagonGecko729]

40 gallon is not acceptable for 3-4 months. You are 100% incorrect and have no business owning a monitor if you feel this is correct.


UVB is NOT needed for a monitor.


No. 115 is not ok.


Why enclose it with plywood when you can just REMOVE THE GLASS AND USE JUST THE PLYWOOD!!! There is zero reason to use a glass tank. It's not cheaper, it's never better, it's not easier. How hard is it to make and seal a box, and put some dirt in it? It's really not ! It's just not as "pretty".


Monitors are tough as nails but 99.9% of them never see 5 years of age in captivity. Good logic champ, tough as nails but don't reach 25% of their expected life. Tough as nails but 98% don't live past a year or 2. Yeah, you sure convinced me. Can they take a lot of abuse and recover? Sure, it sometimes happens, but does that make them tough as nails? Nope.


Yes. Most of the enclosures at major zoos are poor. I've told reptile curators at zoos that- when they feed to little, don't offer whole prey, don't provide hot enough temps, and offer no dirt in favor of bark or other "display" substrate. Most zoos are clueless in terms of monitor care.


His sav won't be ok for 3-4 months in an aqarium. Lol.

A 40 gallon is acceptable for 3-4 months. You are 100% incorrect and have no business owning a monitor if you feel this is not correct. (See, I can make non-arguments too, I can also do ad hominem but then again so can most primates (its called flinging poo) )

Either point out why I am wrong using some kind of factual evidence or I am done with your nonsense because your wasting my time. I am all open to be corrected with new evidence but your just wasting my time.

I think we have both said already that UVB isn't necessary, reading the thread may help you out.

115F is the low side on the basking AND I only recommend it for smaller monitors, this would typically be when the light turns on in the morning or when you spray the enclosure down with water. I pointed this out multiple times by saying 115F-130F. My rational for this is that if your only feeding inverts there is less heat required in a smaller stomach with less mass to decompose.

He can enclose the tank with plywood because that is what he has to work with until he makes his build, which I'm sure he has already started, if for anything, just to end this thread.

If he was starting from scratch then he could have built the plywood cage from the start and then purchased the monitor (which is ideal).

The majority of those Savs die due to a newspaper substrate, 30 gallon tank, single 150WT bulb, rodent diet/dog food lifestyle OR they are free range in the house. They develop shedding issues which cut off circulation, burns, lack of exercise, MBD from lack of supplementation, and fatty liver syndrome.

I agree about the zoos though, the vast majority of them are clueless, they will throw their monitors on wood chips and have a flood light 6ft from the floor of the enclosure with no elevated basking spots. However I have seen a couple that do it right, in an all glass enclosure.

[Dehlol]

A 40 gallon is acceptable for 3-4 months. You are 100% incorrect and have no business owning a monitor if you feel this is not correct. (See, I can make non-arguments too, I can also do ad hominem but then again so can most primates (its called flinging poo) )

Either point out why I am wrong using some kind of factual evidence or I am done with your nonsense because your wasting my time. I am all open to be corrected with new evidence but your just wasting my time.

A. Fish tank piss poor for a monitor. PERIOD. Every intelligent monitor keeper agrees with this.
B. 40 gallon too small. If your monitor fits in a 40 gallon after 4 months, you've got problems, likely brought on by the bad environment in the tank!

I think we have both said already that UVB isn't necessary, reading the thread may help you out.

I was too busy providing my monitor with a non fish tank enclosure to read every line in this thread.

115F is the low side on the basking AND I only recommend it for smaller monitors, this would typically be when the light turns on in the morning or when you spray the enclosure down with water. I pointed this out multiple times by saying 115F-130F. My rational for this is that if your only feeding inverts there is less heat required in a smaller stomach with less mass to decompose.

Wrongo again, doesn't matter if you don't need as "warm of temps to digest insects". You have to feed more of them to equal the same volume of other prey items,...

He can enclose the tank with plywood because that is what he has to work with until he makes his build, which I'm sure he has already started, if for anything, just to end this thread.

.
If you can afford to enclose the tank in plywood,surely he can afford to spend the extra $10 on some sealant and the top/bottom of the plywood enclosed box to make a plywood cage do you not agree? How can you enclose a tank but say you cant use those exact same pieces of wood to make a box- which will be an improvement from the tank...... It's not difficult !

If he was starting from scratch then he could have built the plywood cage from the start and then purchased the monitor (which is ideal).

The majority of those Savs die due to a newspaper substrate, 30 gallon tank, single 150WT bulb, rodent diet/dog food lifestyle OR they are free range in the house. They develop shedding issues which cut off circulation, burns, lack of exercise, MBD from lack of supplementation, and fatty liver syndrome.

I agree about the zoos though, the vast majority of them are clueless, they will throw their monitors on wood chips and have a flood light 6ft from the floor of the enclosure with no elevated basking spots. However I have seen a couple that do it right, in an all glass enclosure.

Majority of savs die due to people thinking they can survive 'until I can afford bigger and better enclosures' and it shortens their lives dramatically due to this mindset.

[AdamL8]

A. Fish tank piss poor for a monitor. PERIOD. Every intelligent monitor keeper agrees with this.
B. 40 gallon too small. If your monitor fits in a 40 gallon after 4 months, you've got problems, likely brought on by the bad environment in the tank!

It is perfectly acceptable to use a heavily modified fish tank which would mean a sealed top with an inside halogen and some type of insulation such as foam or plywood on the outside to hold in the heat. A factory fresh tank with a mesh top is what everybody agrees is awful. A healthy Sav can easily live its first 4 months in a 40 gallon breeder assuming it is modified for monitor use. Much past this will be really pushing it especially if you end up with a male. If you can have the adult enclosure or any larger enclosure set up before 4 months I would of course suggest using it since it will be better in every way.

I was too busy providing my monitor with a non fish tank enclosure to read every line in this thread.

Do you happen to have any pictures of your enclosure and monitor? Of course not everybody wants to read through several pages. Nobody minds if you don't but there's no need to snap at somebody for letting you know that something you confronted them on was something that was already discussed and answered.

Wrongo again, doesn't matter if you don't need as "warm of temps to digest insects". You have to feed more of them to equal the same volume of other prey items,...

I don't disagree that 115 is insufficient. I would guess that digesting insects does take less energy than digesting rodents or other heavy meats. There are also probably more unusable bits on insects than on rodents so you would indeed need slightly more of them by weight to equal the same meat that you get from rodents. I see no reason to not use the same temperatures of 130-145 regardless.

If you can afford to enclose the tank in plywood,surely he can afford to spend the extra $10 on some sealant and the top/bottom of the plywood enclosed box to make a plywood cage do you not agree? How can you enclose a tank but say you cant use those exact same pieces of wood to make a box- which will be an improvement from the tank...... It's not difficult !

Majority of savs die due to people thinking they can survive 'until I can afford bigger and better enclosures' and it shortens their lives dramatically due to this mindset.

Most people don't enclose the tank in plywood and use a fish tank simply because they already have them lying around or because it's convenient to buy. If somebody was going to fully enclose it in wood anyways then I agree that they should just spend the extra bit to finish it instead of using a makeshift enclosure. It's really not difficult but most people that buy Savs don't want to put any effort at all forward since they paid so little for the actual lizard.

I think that the mindset which causes problems is people thinking that they know better than those who have successfully kept and raised monitors even when presented with all the facts. That is not at all aimed at you so don't take it that way. There are really any number of things that cause Savs to die since so many of them die every single year.

[ironpython]

I didn't mean to start all this drama, we are using the forty gallon tank until we build the permanent enclosure. I breed balls and am well aware that different species require specific habitats to thrive. That's why I ask questions here to get advice along with my own research this tank I had is set up to provide proper temporary conditions. I have a topsoil sand mixture deep enough for the monitor to burrow should he desire, also I provided enough rocks and wood pieces for him to have plenty of hiding places. My temps are 130 in the hot bask I g area and he is doing well eating when ever offered shared crickets and Dubai's from our colony. He is fed now with tongs or from the dish we have provided. We found the monitor at a repticon show and hadn't planned on the purchase. My son is fifteen and helps my care for our ten snakes and twelve tub rat rack that we breed feeders for our snakes in. I made a comment and asked for some tips and didn't expect to be jumped by fellow herpers and called irresponsible reptile owners. You remind me of the tree huggers in another forum who dogged me for feeding live rats to my balls. You know self rightious beepers like you ruin these forums by acting like everyone is irresponsible for not doing things just as you do, even criticising zoologists. Are you a herpetologist or veterinarian or even a biologist, I'm just curious what are your credentials that make you think you can berate everyone who doesn't believe as you do.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 het blurry, 0.1 spider, 1.1 norm. 0.1 dinker,