What are Pieds? (Jinx)

[4theSNAKElady]

just my opinion....Im not a geneticist by no means. But by definition of recessive, what makes an actual pied animal a pied animal is the having both the genes and physically expressing it. Not all het pieds have the "markers". Ive seen some that look just like normals! So what about that? And what about albinos? Are there markers for het albinos? None that I know of. And even though leopards react with pieds, doesn't mean they are the same gene, imo. Same is true with toffees and albinos. They will combine with each other, but each morph by itself LOOKS different.

[SlitherinSisters]

Very interesting...

Although, if you threw a bunch of het pieds without markers and a bunch of normals in a bucket could you actually pick them out? It seems that if they were a codom gene you should be able to pick them out from normals, like ybs and spotnoses. As for mixing het pieds and codom genes and being able to pick them out... Could that be because those morphs are already susceptible to pattern changes? I feel the codom het pied morphs listed could easily be altered by the pied gene. I'm not arguing that you can't pick out a pewter het pied, I know you can, but I don't think that alone would make pieds codoms. To me that shows that the pewter pattern is weak and highly susceptible to change via het genes.

If we were to go with this logic every single recessive out there would be a codom morph. Het ghosts tend to be lighter, het clowns tend to be lighter, etc etc. You see what you want to see in a normal looking snake that is het for something.

[Royal Hijinx]

You are correct. Pete started noticing them in his het pied clutches. And mentioned it to Greg Grazing who was seeing the same thing. They started holding those back and working with them.

Justin Kobylka's first leopards was purchased as a het pied from a breeder who didn't recognize it as a leopard (they were still 'new" at the time.


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This become a chicken or the egg argument. Was the original Pieds that started throwing Leopards truly a full Pied? Was it a Leopard X "het Pied"? Was it a Super Leopard?

Leopard may well turn out to be a extreme version of het Pied, but does not change my stance at all on the recessive thing.

[snakesRkewl]

You can not breed a het clown to a normal and with 100% accuracy pull out the het offspring.

says who, and even if not with 100% accuracy, prettydang close. Start adding up the markers they have and it becomes fairly obvious.

My thought on this is if there is ANY phenotypical difference from a 'normal' to a heterozygous recessive then by definition it cannot be recessive

That's my thought too.

Take 5 super pastel females. Breed a het clown to them. Tell me if you can pick out the pastel het clowns.

Do the same with super lessers BEL.. Tell me if you can pick out the lesser het clowns...

After producing both, I'd take that challenge any day, and I'm sure you could too

In the end, just because the Pied mutation has been around for a long time, but NO MEANS indicates the original thinking has to be correct.

Completely agree, I don't see any recessives in ball pythons, just because most people can't see the markers doesn't mean those of us that produce them can't see them.

Are there markers for het albinos?

Absolutely, and they are no different than the markers for lav albino.

[4theSNAKElady]

A marker for het albino????n what is that???

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[majorleaguereptiles]

A marker for het albino????n what is that???

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Albinism would be IMO a different story bc it's not really a pattern changer IMO. But I do find it interesting with myself hatching axanthic looking het albinos that color after a few sheds. Also interesting to see het ghosts sometimes actually look like mild ghosts. Pretty neat if you ask me. But I do agree that albinism hets would probably not fit the mold to see visual hets and throughout the animal kingdom albinism is considered recessive and I believe that's 100% factual.

[TessadasExotics]

You can not change genetics. Pieds are recessive. Albinos are recessive. Laves are. Carmels are. Axanthics are.
The genetic terms used in the ball python world are already wrong. So why try to make things worse?

By definition.
In genetics, a:recessive gene or allele is one in which the effect is not tangible, or is masked by the effects of the dominant gene. The recessivetrait may be expressed when the recessive genes are in homozygous condition or when the dominant gene is not present. That happens when anorganism inherits a pair of recessive genes from its parents.

[Mike41793]

I just want everyone to know that i'm not ignoring you all. I'm spectating and enjoying the discussion, keep it up!

[RandyRemington]

You can not change genetics. Pieds are recessive.

Because they where first marketed that way? It was actually a pretty big stink when the markers came out because people had been selling possible hets for years and some may have been picking out the markered ones first.

To me the definitions of recessive vs. codominant is very cut and dry and wouldn't surprise me at all that the real world is more messy.

[snakesRkewl]

RandyRemington

I used to call it "recessive with co-dominant tendencies" but now with the leopards being a fully co-dominant pied mutation maybe the older pied allele is co-domain with recessive tendencies; or a subtle co-dominant if you prefer.

A subtle incomplete dominant trait, I wholeheartedly agree.


Genetically a het is a het is a het, I do not believe any of the traits we play with are truly recessive.
Saying a heterozygous clown doesn't interact with the wild type gene is like saying a pastel doesn't interact with the wild type gene,
it just isn't so.
Both are heterozygous traits, one more visual than the other, but no different otherwise.

Here's a simple picture, amir line yellowbelly mom with amir line yellowbelly 100% het clown.
If het clown is "recessive" why does it act so visual?