What are Pieds? (Jinx)

[youbeyouibei]

Genome mapping. I'd gladly contribute to help fund that research project! Hands on experience is great but without specific parameters, test/control groups, a significant enough population to account for statistical anomalies, it's all just anecdotal "evidence" in the end. More likely than not doesn't meet the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Interesting points to the discussion but at the end of the day it's just that, a discussion.

[majorleaguereptiles]

Take 5 super pastel females. Breed a het clown to them. Tell me if you can pick out the pastel het clowns.

Do the same with super lessers BEL.. Tell me if you can pick out the lesser het clowns...

Do the same with a het pied to a super cinnamons. Or maybe to super Mojaves.

Anyone ever seen a lot of het tristripe combos? TSK actually started to remove poss hets bc it was too obvious to identify them. Made selling them for cheaper than hets not a brilliant idea.

Picking out the hets in these clutches, would be a piece or cake for me, you or anyone with BP experience.

As for breeding them to a normal, I noticed you don't see the same heterozygous affect on a normal versus with another mutation. That's why I gave examples using supers

Lately, I've actually been hatching colorless het albinos that color with age.

Is this confusing to some, probably. Has it been this way for years? Yes. But I personally think our eyes are becoming much more advanced when identifying these mutations.

I'm not saying lets go and rename these to inc dominant morphs, but I'm definitely more open minded... How do you think a lot of advanced breeders shorten double recessive projects? I know I can in my own collection.

Remember, analyzing possible hets are easier when comparing multiple siblings, that are identical. Hence why I mentioned supers above. Having the comparison makes identifying quite simple. If you want to argue that, I'd suggest you try it first because you would surprise yourself.

Interesting topic, thanks for posting.

[interloc]

Brant, excellent write up there! Maybe you can verify something I'm going to say here because I'm not 100% sure if this is true.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't THINK that leopards are in fact another gene at all. I don't think they are ALLELIC with pieds. I thought I heard somewhere that the first leopards came out of a clutch containing pieds. So it's not like saying that a new leopard came out of Africa and pieds came from that. No. An existing captive snake was bred and leopards came out. Correct me if this is wrong info.

If what I say is correct then pieds would be considered co-Dom in my books. I have 2 het pieds with Leopard like characteristics but are surely no leopards. I know some people think there is no true recessives I'm ball pythons because they can pick hets out very easily in Clutches. Much like brant said.

Me, I don't really care about the morph labels in balls. After all, all the co-doms are incorrectly named. They should be incomplete dominants. So there are inaccuracies built in to this whole industry anyways. Whatever the case, Leo's and pieds are always awesome!

[irishanaconda]

I think the simple fact that u can throw a pied male to a normal and have some being normal without markers might kill the convo of them being co dom. Along with what brants saying can be applied to the clown. With that said people do use markers. Its just not like breeding a mojave to a normal and picking out the mojaves

[Royal Hijinx]

Well, looks like a lot of it got covered while I was sleeping. Brant and I have discussed it before, so I know we are on the same page.

Remember, there are a handful of morphs that we already call inc-dom, that can be hard to distinguish from a Normal. Specter for example.

I fully agree with what Brant said in that we are just getting better at seeing subtle morphs. Larger scale breeders that literally see THOUSANDS of animals per year, develop an eye. But, even those of us that are now seeing thousands of pictures of animals a year, are doing the same.

Putting your foot down and stating that Pied is for a fact recessive is, IMO, not taking a real look at what is going on.

For the purpose of Ball Pythons, recessive has meant that when the animal carries one gene for the trait, it is indistinguishable from a Normal, or simply it carries the Normal phenotype.

I brought up Pied in the previous example, but Clown, Tri-Stripe and some other classically considered recessive seem to not really follow that recessive definition.

As for Leopard, I personally do not think Leopard and "het Pied" are the same gene. I think it is similar to the YB complex where some of the genes are just stronger and fall on a continuum. Making Pied, in essence an extreme Ringer mutation, which would also help explain why they seem to randomly vary in the amount of white, as other Ringers out there are quite unstable and variable.

So I am saying I think there is a Inc-dom Pied complex. We should all actually be VERY excited about this. It means there may be more animals out there in that complex yet to be discovered, and that is AWESOME!

I think more breeding needs to be done to prove this for certain, but I am going with the idea that makes more sense to me.

In the end, just because the Pied mutation has been around for a long time, but NO MEANS indicates the original thinking has to be correct.

[Royal Hijinx]

I think the simple fact that u can throw a pied male to a normal and have some being normal without markers might kill the convo of them being co dom. Along with what brants saying can be applied to the clown. With that said people do use markers. Its just not like breeding a mojave to a normal and picking out the mojaves

Mojave is too clear cut for that argument. Replace Mojave with Specter, Gravel etc... and you will have much harder time making that argument. Mojave is not a subtle inc-dom.

All Ball Pythons (and every other animal we would breed) are have polygenetic traits that can easily interrupt classic markers.

[irishanaconda]

I see what your saying, and believe me i understand different lines seem to also throw different markers. Some pieds have tracks and some have floaters and ive heard a ton of different markers for pieds and also clowns (another being long alien heads that draw up)..... but the actual pied gene itself i still would consider it being recessive. I think people miss read the pied gene with traits that are line bred with better looking snakes in general. Pieds specifically were looked for in the beginning for belly markers in the hets, it was no hidden secret and i think in the long run the markers took over. Why some with markers prove out and others dont, but when u get a known line of pieds the poss hets with the markers have a better chance of proving out. Im not saying ur point is invalid i just think some people like to hear themselves talk more than try and prove a point

[Royal Hijinx]

Well, I do like to hear myself talk on occasion, if that is what you are getting at. And if that is the case, there are ways to not read whatever I type.

[irishanaconda]

lol, not getting at anything really with u or trying to be specific.

[rabernet]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't THINK that leopards are in fact another gene at all. I don't think they are ALLELIC with pieds. I thought I heard somewhere that the first leopards came out of a clutch containing pieds. So it's not like saying that a new leopard came out of Africa and pieds came from that. No. An existing captive snake was bred and leopards came out. Correct me if this is wrong info.

You are correct. Pete started noticing them in his het pied clutches. And mentioned it to Greg Grazing who was seeing the same thing. They started holding those back and working with them.

Justin Kobylka's first leopards was purchased as a het pied from a breeder who didn't recognize it as a leopard (they were still 'new" at the time.


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